Anybody hear /read any news about 2 Blackhawks crashing at Snowbird Ski resort , UT?

I’ll just add that even with a lot of experience in a variety of environmental situations, even the most seasoned of us can eff it up.

Absolutely. Hence why I mentioned that these ops can’t be taken for granted or become comfortable with. Having experience definitely mitigates that however, but the above still applies. Look at the experience level of the Louisiana Army Guard M-model hawk crew 7 years ago…..
 
Absolutely. Hence why I mentioned that these ops can’t be taken for granted or become comfortable with. Having experience definitely mitigates that however, but the above still applies. Look at the experience level of the Louisiana Army Guard M-model hawk crew 7 years ago…..
Yup. And don’t get me started on those guys. Experience wasn’t the issue, attitudes were.
 
Yup. And don’t get me started on those guys. Experience wasn’t the issue, attitudes were.

Agreed. Point being the experience was there, however there still wasn’t enough in the bank to cover the tab for some of the decisions made.
 
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Ugh......even I remember that horrible crash..........from WIKI

Events
At approximately 1945 CST, CW4 Griffin was briefed on weather conditions prior to launch; the UH-60M piloted by CW4 Griffin and CW4 Strother (operating under callsign MOJO 69) took off with another LAARNG UH-60M at 2016 CST to perform the training exercise.: CW4 Strother was recorded saying "Gee, it's dark as (expletive). That don't help none," shortly after takeoff.: Timestamp   Once MOJO 69 crossed the shoreline, they entered what the investigation later called a Degraded Visual Environment at approximately 173 seconds after takeoff;  the other UH-60M did not follow MOJO 69 into the fog, choosing instead to turn east and hover. Four seconds after one of the aircrew noted they were over the water, CW4 Griffin noted "Yeah, it's too dark to see the (expletive) water.": 




Illustration showing MOJO 69 flight path, 10 Mar 2015

After entering the fogbank, both pilots of MOJO 69 started exhibiting signs of spatial disorientation, according to both the flight data recorder and cockpit voice transmission transcripts;:   MOJO 69 came to zero knots indicated airspeed and began flying backwards almost immediately after losing visual references. This deviated from the mission path, and CW4 Griffin, the pilot-in-command, failed to announce the deviation, providing evidence that he had become disoriented without realizing it.:   MOJO 69 turned on their position light and asked the other helicopter's flight crew to put on their position light as well; the other helicopter's crew radioed back that they could not see MOJO 69.:  During this time, MOJO 69 flew backwards for approximately 20 seconds before CW4 Griffin announced he was "coming back to the right ... pulling back to the East", not realizing he had instead turned to the north. As MOJO 69 continued backwards, it turned right about the yaw axis and took a nose-up pitch attitude of 20 degrees.

Approximately 56 seconds after the first signs of spatial disorientation, CW4 Strother announced "we climbed up in it" and asked "where's our airspeed?":  Both pilots showed "increasingly erratic flight control inputs" and had "anxious verbal exchanges" at this point:CW4 Griffin commanded rapid climb and descent maneuvers and put the aircraft into a spin. CW4 Strother asked "G-Wayne, what are you doin'?":   and asked him to climb;:   CW4 Griffin responded that he was "climbin' up" after approximately twenty seconds:   and CW4 Strother warned him about the spin five seconds after that. 

Approximately 96 seconds after first showing spatial disorientation, CW4 Griffin asked CW4 Strother to take the controls:  but both pilots were unable to regain control of the aircraft.:  CW4 Griffin warned CW4 Strother to "watch the collective" twice   and took the controls back 8 seconds after relinquishing them to CW4 Strother.  CW4 Strother suggested engaging the autopilot,:  but this was not successful as the aircraft was already "outside the required flight parameters", and CW4 Strother first warned CW4 Griffin they were "in a bad right turn",:   then to "watch your altitude, attitude G-Wayne attitude, level" in quick succession.: 

The last recorded cockpit voice transmission was CW4 Strother urging "climb, climb".: MOJO 69 crashed into Santa Rosa Sound,approximately 125 seconds after entering the fog.  Both the speed and angle of impact were not survivable.


Investigation
A later investigation conducted by LAARNG and USSOC concluded that the cause of the crash was spatial disorientation, resulting in the pilots crashing into the Santa Rosa Sound.[15] Contributing causes included the pilots' choice to fly in weather and visibility that did not meet minimum requirements and a breakdown in aircrew communication, both before and during the mission

CW4 Griffin had been briefed on March 7 that operations with night vision goggles could be conducted under visual meteorological conditions (VMC) only, establishing minimum requirements for the cloud ceiling [1,000 feet (300 m)] and visibility [3 miles (5 km)]; these requirements were subsequently included and acknowledged on all mission briefing sheets. Contrary to these VMC minima requirements, both helicopters took off in conditions with low clouds and poor visibility; Hurlburt Field, which was the closest weather facility to the accident site, was showing visibility of 1 mile (1.6 km) and a cloud ceiling of 300 feet (91 m) at 1958 and 2058 CST that night.  In addition, prior to takeoff, an observer at the drop zone called Hurlburt Field to receive a weather report at 1926 CST, concerned that he could not see the lights of the 300 feet (91 m) tall control tower, which was approximately 2.3 miles (3.7 km) from his position. The observer voiced his concerns about the visibility by telephone to Master Sergeant (MSgt) Thomas Saunders, one of the Marines assigned to fly on MOJO 69 that night. CW4 Griffin stated he was unconcerned, as his flight path would keep him away from the tower and that he had the required ceilings to fly the mission.

CW4 Strother and the rest of the MOJO 69 aircrew did not challenge CW4 Griffin's decision to proceed with the mission in the face of deteriorating weather, because of their confidence in CW4 Griffin's judgment and piloting skill. This occurred despite individuals exhibiting trepidation about "the weather and the lack of ambient illumination". In addition, once CW4 Griffin began exhibiting spatial disorientation, the transfer of controls and assistance with interpreting flight instruments "were not adequately executed" and the two pilots were unable to assist each other to flight under instrument meteorological conditions effectively.
 
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To get good at brownout and whiteout landings, you have to do brownout and whiteout landings. And acceptable risk in order to do the real world business. Sometimes things end up bent; hopefully that’s all that happens.
That white out was thick enough to create a dark shadow which would compound the situation with flat light on a featureless surface.
 
I landed a bit on snow during my commercial helo add-on. Was told always to pick a a visible object and keep it within the rotor disc - a small shrub, rock, log, fence post etc...the visibility inside the rotor disc usually remains clear, so that object might be the only thing you have to keep the ship level and descending appropriately. Then of course you have to set down on the snow and feel out how far the ship is going to sink into it, and keep some power in/avoid shutting down if you think it'll sink to the belly or deeper. Then if it's a ski area like this was, throw in some slope landing conerns; you don't want to end up sliding downhill after touchdown.

Of course I was not dealing with the rotorwash from a 2 ship formation either. Seems like a very very challenging scenario when taking into account a formation landing. It was hard enough trying to avoid vortex ring state from my own ship's vortices, much less worrying about it from the lead. Helicopter flying is not easy....so many things can go wrong at any given time.
 
I landed a bit on snow during my commercial helo add-on. Was told always to pick a a visible object and keep it within the rotor disc - a small shrub, rock, log, fence post etc...the visibility inside the rotor disc usually remains clear, so that object might be the only thing you have to keep the ship level and descending appropriately. Then of course you have to set down on the snow and feel out how far the ship is going to sink into it, and keep some power in/avoid shutting down if you think it'll sink to the belly or deeper. Then if it's a ski area like this was, throw in some slope landing conerns; you don't want to end up sliding downhill after touchdown.

Of course I was not dealing with the rotorwash from a 2 ship formation either. Seems like a very very challenging scenario when taking into account a formation landing. It was hard enough trying to avoid vortex ring state from my own ship's vortices, much less worrying about it from the lead. Helicopter flying is not easy....so many things can go wrong at any given time.

In snow areas, useful visual references are generally few. You have to approach with enough forward speed to keep dust/snow behind you as much as possible, but it’s going to catch up to your tail/cabin/cockpit as you slow to touchdown. The object to to make a decelerating approach to 1knot/1AGL and immediately set down. With no position hold systems, hovering in a brownout or whiteout is a quick way to get killed, since unseen sideward drift will occur and touching down with that will likely roll you over, just as touching down with too much forward speed will on a skid helo, or even on a wheeled helo with ground not conducive to forward roll, such as snow. Takes a lot of training and practice, and still you never take any brown/whiteout landing for granted or get comfortable with them, for that’s when they bite you.
 
In snow areas, useful visual references are generally few. You have to approach with enough forward speed to keep dust/snow behind you as much as possible, but it’s going to catch up to your tail/cabin/cockpit as you slow to touchdown. The object to to make a decelerating approach to 1knot/1AGL and immediately set down. With no position hold systems, hovering in a brownout or whiteout is a quick way to get killed, since unseen sideward drift will occur and touching down with that will likely roll you over, just as touching down with too much forward speed will on a skid helo, or even on a wheeled helo with ground not conducive to forward roll, such as snow. Takes a lot of training and practice, and still you never take any brown/whiteout landing for granted or get comfortable with them, for that’s when they bite you.

I like the discussion, granted my experience in an R44 compared to a UH60 is probably like comparing C172 ops to a C-130. We did quite a few confined area landings on snow in the R44 (small frozen ponds surrounded by 50-75 foot tall spruce trees). It required slow < 100 fpm descents to avoid VRS considering you had to come straight down once you got below the trees. I was advised that if you couldn't keep some kind of visual reference inside your rotor disk, not to event try it. That's the luxury of civilian ops I guess, usually no pressing need to actually do risky stuff.
 
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