any one fly a Twin Star? what to do about Teilert
- Thread starter flyboywbl
- Start date
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
From an article I read this month re: Thielert - quoted out of context for highlights....
The last quoted paragraph regards the fact that all warranties are invalid now.
I would GUESS that the reason for that is Diamond's inablility withstand that kind of exposure on the warranty side, especially if they cannot source parts. Warranties are a delicate balance of costs vs. risk - and a bad product can kill your company on warranty issues - not just in aircraft engines.
However, there may be a silver lining here....read on...
Full text of the article available in the August 2008 issue of Flying.
Berkut
Well-Known Member
Ugh. If I owned one, I would be fed up with messing with unproven engines. I think it would be better to wait for IO-360s.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Except that they can't wait. Diamond is in a bad position right now and I'm certain they are frustrated beyond measure. They have to get a supportable solution to market ASAP. They expect to have EU approval "soon" for the Austro.
flyboywbl
3rd regional in 1 year
from what i understand there are about 1,500 of these engines in service right now. if the cost of the warrenty work for each 1000 hours is PER engine thats 90,000,000 dollars out of pocket for Diamond. If it's per plane its still 45,000,000 out of pocket. There is no way diamond can cover that.
The plus side to getting the Lycomings is that any one can service them. Our A&P guy on the feild had to get special training to work on the Theilerts. The problem is that you would have to set the plane up for av gas instead of JET A.
The Turbo Jet A engines would be nice but it would be a new engine and no one would know how much it would cost down the line to operate/maintian.
In both cases the electronics would have to be reworked. Right now it has glow plugs. If you went to av gas engines then you would have to have mag systems wired and mixture control levers. Would the prop pitch be controlled buy an ECU? Would the cockpit get the traditional twin set up with two throttles, two prop levers, and two mixture levers? The G1000 software would have to be changed as well. It's a lot of work no matter what they come up with. I just feel bad for the people who own them. This is why i don't own a plane. It's nice when you rent because when the plane goes down you don't pay a dime.
The plus side to getting the Lycomings is that any one can service them. Our A&P guy on the feild had to get special training to work on the Theilerts. The problem is that you would have to set the plane up for av gas instead of JET A.
The Turbo Jet A engines would be nice but it would be a new engine and no one would know how much it would cost down the line to operate/maintian.
In both cases the electronics would have to be reworked. Right now it has glow plugs. If you went to av gas engines then you would have to have mag systems wired and mixture control levers. Would the prop pitch be controlled buy an ECU? Would the cockpit get the traditional twin set up with two throttles, two prop levers, and two mixture levers? The G1000 software would have to be changed as well. It's a lot of work no matter what they come up with. I just feel bad for the people who own them. This is why i don't own a plane. It's nice when you rent because when the plane goes down you don't pay a dime.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
stick some Allison 250's on the plastic plane.
All I need is an aeroengineer, and like 3 mil. to certify it.
The only thing is can the Allison's be tuned down enough not to rip the plastic wings off the POS without flaming out?
Come to think of it, I DID see a turbine powered ultralight at Oshkosh one year...
All I need is an aeroengineer, and like 3 mil. to certify it.
The only thing is can the Allison's be tuned down enough not to rip the plastic wings off the POS without flaming out?
Come to think of it, I DID see a turbine powered ultralight at Oshkosh one year...
Toria
Well-Known Member
I like that.
Is all your worry constructive? If you have no power over the decision, then stop the worry and deal with the events as they happen. If you have liberty to suggest solutions, suggest away.
flyboywbl
3rd regional in 1 year
I'm just trying to look at it in another light and possibly some one will come up with something i've not thought about to pass on to the owner of the plane and flight school owner.
I did overhear them talking about selling the 1.7 Theilerts while they are still good, and waiting for the new engines to come out. Sucks for me but oh well. I'm taking my MEC on Wednesday and would like to be able to take the MEI in it in the next few weeks. but we'll see.
The bottom line is that the flight school needs a twin so i should not worry about it too much. This is just interesting to me because i'm directly effected from the outcome.
-Matt
I did overhear them talking about selling the 1.7 Theilerts while they are still good, and waiting for the new engines to come out. Sucks for me but oh well. I'm taking my MEC on Wednesday and would like to be able to take the MEI in it in the next few weeks. but we'll see.
The bottom line is that the flight school needs a twin so i should not worry about it too much. This is just interesting to me because i'm directly effected from the outcome.
-Matt
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Flown it, loved the plane, but knew it was going to have issues - over and over and over again.
It's a fun plane the fly, great for cross-countries, and very limited multi-engine training in my humble opinion. I got my Comm ME in it, and MEI. Wish I had more "real" (with mixture and prop levers) piston ME experience. . .but such is life.
I think once Diamond can work the kinks out, find an engine that is reliable, and they find what combination works best with a FADEC system - it'll be a great plane and far more reliable from a student, instructor, and owner standpoint.
Until then though. . .a lot of people are screwed.
It's a fun plane the fly, great for cross-countries, and very limited multi-engine training in my humble opinion. I got my Comm ME in it, and MEI. Wish I had more "real" (with mixture and prop levers) piston ME experience. . .but such is life.
I think once Diamond can work the kinks out, find an engine that is reliable, and they find what combination works best with a FADEC system - it'll be a great plane and far more reliable from a student, instructor, and owner standpoint.
Until then though. . .a lot of people are screwed.
bdhill1979
Gone West
Oh the 1.7s were never any good, that and they would probably make a lot more money parting them out. There are a lot of desperate twin star owners out there.
WacoFan
Bigly
Someone please explain why a Twinstar with IO-360's is a great option. I understand that it is a better option than a hanger queen with diesels from a defunct manufacturer, but I fail to see why a Twinstar with gas burning Lycomings is the answer - wasn't the neat part that the plane burned very little Jet-A? If the they put Lyc's on it, it would further the argument of a normal, used twin. IO-360's on a Twinstar will burn the same as IO-360's in a Seneca I...I bet the Seneca I is cheaper to buy.
I think Diamond HAS to put some kind of diesel on it. Personally, it makes me wonder about ALL Diamond airplanes - if they did this poorly of a job picking Thielert as a partner, what sub-components exist on other airplanes that they didn't do the due-dilligence on?
I think Diamond HAS to put some kind of diesel on it. Personally, it makes me wonder about ALL Diamond airplanes - if they did this poorly of a job picking Thielert as a partner, what sub-components exist on other airplanes that they didn't do the due-dilligence on?
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Was just having this conversation with another pilot this morning...
There is an FBO here in Austin who has an all-Diamond fleet, and offers a number of career programs. They do all of their commercial training in a DA-42 - I don't think they have a complex single at all. With that DA-42 going down, not only is their rental revenue impacted, but it throws a wrench in their entire training program.
And I think with respect to Thielert, Diamond did perform their due diligence. All the DD in the world isn't going to expose crooked bookkeeping (allegedly) and other hidden financial woes. They gambled, they lost.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Even before the debacle with the engine manufatcurer, the fuel savings were mostly offset by the added cost of the engine, and the extra maintence required. These engines do NOT have a good reputation. The diesel option was mainly designed for the European market where 100LL is insanely expensive and will not be around much longer.
The rest of the diamond fleet is good designs, with average quality workmanship. No better or worse than Cessna or Piper. however, not as good as Beechcraft and Cirrus.
WacoFan
Bigly
As a follow-up for the more experienced guys -
Does training in a Twinstar really do much good? I think FADEC is cool, but I would imagine that transitioning to a conventional light twin with mixtures, etc would take some work - not sure how much. If the airlines continued to hire directly from wet multi-commercial into a CRJ like a few months ago no problem...but things have changed and I am not sure there are any 135 jobs that are flying FADEC equiped piston twins. So, how much training is required to transition from a Twinstar to a real airplane?
Does training in a Twinstar really do much good? I think FADEC is cool, but I would imagine that transitioning to a conventional light twin with mixtures, etc would take some work - not sure how much. If the airlines continued to hire directly from wet multi-commercial into a CRJ like a few months ago no problem...but things have changed and I am not sure there are any 135 jobs that are flying FADEC equiped piston twins. So, how much training is required to transition from a Twinstar to a real airplane?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't do much good.
flyboywbl
3rd regional in 1 year
I rememebr overhearing at our FBO that there was alot of talk when the twinstar first came out. They were thinking that they would have to put a restriction on the plane (like the SkyMaster Inline thrust restriction) to limit pilots to only being able to fly a plane set up like the twinstar. The fact of the matter is, the FAA decided that the TwinStar is a "Twin" in that sense and that it is a complex aircraft. Until they say other wise the time in the twin is stil Multi Engine time. I don't disagree that some one like my self who has 60 hours in that plane should go and jump in a Barron or a 310 and try to fly it. People say that for a multi engine add on private all you need is about 10 hours before taking the checkride. It took me 25. Once you know and understand multi engine arodynamics the transition should not be to, hard probibly an hour or two at the most. We have a Barron as our G1000 simulator and when i'm doing IFR training the instructor fails all sorts of stuff and i've never had a problem securing, feathering and shuting the engine down. I've also never had a problem starting it up. Becasue insurance usually requires 5 hours in type, if we got a "traditional" twin, i would have to fly it with an instructor first before i could teach in it. Now i'm not sure how an employer will look at your twin time. But i would assume if the FAA says it's twin time they would have to honer it as well.
flyboywbl
3rd regional in 1 year
I personaly vote NO on the Lycomings. We fly at 4,500 feet and the critical altitude on a non turbo charged engine is not good. With the Theilerts we can get up to 8,000 very quickly with the turbos. Personally with the fuel crisis i think the time is so right for this plane i just sucks that someone had to dip into the piggy bank a few to many times and ruin it for every one.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I still stand by an opinion that. . .
Even if the Twinstar had 6 levers, that it would still be a great and easy plane to fly. FADEC is nice, but really. . .it's not all it is cracked up to be.
Throwing in prop and mixture levers won't kill a pilot, and if one can't figure how to fly a ME airplane that has such devices. . .they shouldn't be flying at all.
I say it would take me maybe 3 hours to feel comfortable in a true twin - with prop and mixture. But, I would expect a good 15 hours (at a minimum) to feel real comfortable with everything else a new twin piston would have to throw at me.
I love me a 310 and the newer Barons, wouldn't mind being able to afford one later on down the road - too bad flying for a living doesn't afford you the opportunities to own such fine equipment.
Even if the Twinstar had 6 levers, that it would still be a great and easy plane to fly. FADEC is nice, but really. . .it's not all it is cracked up to be.
Throwing in prop and mixture levers won't kill a pilot, and if one can't figure how to fly a ME airplane that has such devices. . .they shouldn't be flying at all.
I say it would take me maybe 3 hours to feel comfortable in a true twin - with prop and mixture. But, I would expect a good 15 hours (at a minimum) to feel real comfortable with everything else a new twin piston would have to throw at me.
I love me a 310 and the newer Barons, wouldn't mind being able to afford one later on down the road - too bad flying for a living doesn't afford you the opportunities to own such fine equipment.
bdhill1979
Gone West
God if I had a nickel for every time somebody thought I was crazy for thinking Diamonds were junk.......I wouldn't be riding my bike to work.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Pick me! Pick me!:hiya:
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