"Any left turn or Next left turn"

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Question for you ATC folks....when a controller states "make first available turn", or "any left turn" or "next left turn", do they mean only taxiways or are runways what they're expecting. I actually had this happen to me where they said to make the next turn (which was a runway) and I passed it up. Seeing as there were no other taxiways I rolled to the end. They then asked me why I didn't take the runway turnoff???? I always thought they had to specify to turn left on runway XXXXX.

Please advise
 

MikeDelta

Well-Known Member
I've never worked an airport with intersecting runways, so I never gave it much thought; however the book answer is:

"...Pilots shall not exit the landing runway on to an intersecting runway unless authorized by ATC."

- 7110.65 3-10-9 Note 1.
 

Vector4Food

This job would be easier without all the airplanes
From my pilots point of view, I would likely ask if there wasn't a quick taxiway immediately following the runway intersection.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
On a similar note, what about reverse highspeed turn offs? For some reason I am certain I read/heard somewhere that you can't take a reverse highspeed unless given specific permission by ATC. Or maybe that is just a Charlotte thing.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
I've never worked an airport with intersecting runways, so I never gave it much thought; however the book answer is:

"...Pilots shall not exit the landing runway on to an intersecting runway unless authorized by ATC."

- 7110.65 3-10-9 Note 1.
That's my question exactly though....what type or combination of language authorizes it???
 

youngflyer

Well-Known Member
On a similar note, what about reverse highspeed turn offs? For some reason I am certain I read/heard somewhere that you can't take a reverse highspeed unless given specific permission by ATC. Or maybe that is just a Charlotte thing.
I heard the Jetblue a320 at KSYR ask the same thing so I would assume that it is a universal thing.
 

woutlaw

Well-Known Member
That's my question exactly though....what type or combination of language authorizes it???
Well, when given stock "next left/right turn", "turn left/right when able", etc... just ask if the intersecting runway is available if it makes sense to turn off there. (Unless you get "turn left when able, runway nn is available," then go for it if it floats your boat.)

ATC: N12345, turn left when able
ME: Left. Is nn available?
ATC: Affirmative, nn is available/negative, continue past nn blah blah blah.

Takes all of 2 seconds and everybody is happy.

If you do get cleared to turn onto an intersecting runway, get past the hold lines and get clearance before turning onto another taxiway. Made that mistake once, won't again. :)
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
The landing rollout isn't the place to be having a conversation with a controller (unless you've already almost slowed to taxi speed). Getting instructions when we're still at 100kts is distracting, and I don't respond until we're slowed way down. If a controller doesn't like it, they can deal.
 

whysoserial

New Member
On a similar note, what about reverse highspeed turn offs? For some reason I am certain I read/heard somewhere that you can't take a reverse highspeed unless given specific permission by ATC. Or maybe that is just a Charlotte thing.
That is correct. We have reverse highspeeds where I'm at and not to point fingers but some (SKW) like to take it without asking. Stopping on a runway without letting anyone know what's up is never a good idea.
 

whysoserial

New Member
Well, when given stock "next left/right turn", "turn left/right when able", etc... just ask if the intersecting runway is available if it makes sense to turn off there. (Unless you get "turn left when able, runway nn is available," then go for it if it floats your boat.)

ATC: N12345, turn left when able
ME: Left. Is nn available?
ATC: Affirmative, nn is available/negative, continue past nn blah blah blah.

Takes all of 2 seconds and everybody is happy.

If you do get cleared to turn onto an intersecting runway, get past the hold lines and get clearance before turning onto another taxiway. Made that mistake once, won't again. :)
Regarding the last part, that applies to exiting onto a normal taxiway too. When you exit, hold short of the next taxiway for Pete's sake. It's amazing to see people just continue out into other traffic and stop in the middle of it all. It's even more amazing when they taxi to parking all by themselves heading opposite direction to planes that are legally there.
 

LarryinTN

Well-Known Member
When you exit, hold short of the next taxiway for Pete's sake.
It is not always possible to clear the runway AND hold short of the taxiway. You have to have the whole airplane clear of the runway even if in doing so you have part of the airplane extending into the taxiway. Clearing the runway comes first.
 

whysoserial

New Member
It is not always possible to clear the runway AND hold short of the taxiway. You have to have the whole airplane clear of the runway even if in doing so you have part of the airplane extending into the taxiway. Clearing the runway comes first.
Yes, I know. I'm talking about all those folks who call off the runway telling us where they want to go WHILE taxing on their own to where they want to go...they think they are saving time but really just looking to run into someone. Had an EGF the other day exit and turn on his own toward the gate while calling. He turned right into opposite direction traffic, needless to say, those passengers go a face full of the seat in front of them. It happens all day. You wouldn't do it at LAX (or insert your own larger airport), so why would you do it elsewhere.

And as long as there isn't another airplane blocking you, once you're clear of the white runway line, you're considered clear and their will be a departure or arrival behind you even if you aren't across the yellow bars. It's not always about the yellow bars. Now if you are approaching the runway, the yellow bars are now a little more important.
 

matt152

Well-Known Member
That's my question exactly though....what type or combination of language authorizes it???
At BDL, the tower will say "make any left turn, including 19." In the absence of that instruction I would not turn onto another runway.
 

woutlaw

Well-Known Member
And as long as there isn't another airplane blocking you, once you're clear of the white runway line, you're considered clear and their will be a departure or arrival behind you even if you aren't across the yellow bars. It's not always about the yellow bars. Now if you are approaching the runway, the yellow bars are now a little more important.
That I didn't know. I was taught, and teach, that you're not clear of the runway until the entire aircraft is past the hold lines when exiting a runway, which is how the AIM (2-3-5) lays it out.

Is that a specific ATC thing to allow you to get a departure rolling even though the arriving a/c isn't yet past the yellow bars but you can reasonably anticipate that it will be as there's nothing blocking the arrival's way past the hold lines?

I always enjoy talking shop with controllers. Gives me a better picture of what's going on and, hopefully, gives them a better idea of the pilot's perspective on things.
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
And as long as there isn't another airplane blocking you, once you're clear of the white runway line, you're considered clear and their will be a departure or arrival behind you even if you aren't across the yellow bars. It's not always about the yellow bars. Now if you are approaching the runway, the yellow bars are now a little more important.
Really? According to whom? I know you guys have your own separate manuals, but our AIM is pretty clear about hold short markings:

AIM 2-3-5 said:
Generally, runway holding position markings also identify the boundary of the runway safety area for aircraft exiting the runway....An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position marking.
As a pilot, there's no way I would stop before the entire aircraft was clear of the hold short markings and on a taxiway.

Yes, I know. I'm talking about all those folks who call off the runway telling us where they want to go WHILE taxing on their own to where they want to go...they think they are saving time but really just looking to run into someone....You wouldn't do it at LAX (or insert your own larger airport), so why would you do it elsewhere.
There are plenty of large airports where you will get yelled at for stopping after clearing a runway. At ORD it's not uncommon to have to wait for a while on ground freq's before a word in after clearing. Want to guess what happens if you just stop on one of their taxiways (or if your whole plane wasn't clear of the hold short lines)?.

Had an EGF the other day exit and turn on his own toward the gate while calling. He turned right into opposite direction traffic, needless to say, those passengers go a face full of the seat in front of them.
That's his fault for not looking where he's turning.
 

whysoserial

New Member
This is right out of the aim guys.

4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
Once the aircraft crosses the white runway line, another aircraft may now cross the threshold if landing or start it's takeoff roll. An aircraft is not going to go into reverse and get back on the runway. Forward momentum will win. Now if aircraft is approaching the runway and crosses the bars, they are considered on the runway.

Regarding your comment about EGF. You're right, he didn't look, but guess what? What was he doing turning that way...how does he know I want him to go that way? They just switched to my frequency, he doesn't have the picture. No excuses.

Also, looking at the reference in 2-3-5 you are talking about. It talks about general stuff regarding these hold markings. It clearly mentions them in regards to "approaching a runway" in paragraph a. It talks mostly of this "approaching" maneuver later on and then talks about uncontrolled airports. Generally though right? :)

Anyways, take a look next time you are out flying and see where some of this exiting traffic is when people are crossing the threshold and departing. Things would be a lot more difficult (and slower) if we had to wait and make sure the rudder wasn't an inch across the line before issuing the next clearance eh?
 

woutlaw

Well-Known Member
Neat. Thanks for that.

I'll be slightly less paranoid about getting my entire butt past the hold lines as quickly as possible. Slightly.:)


This is right out of the aim guys.

Once the aircraft crosses the white runway line, another aircraft may now cross the threshold if landing or start it's takeoff roll. An aircraft is not going to go into reverse and get back on the runway. Forward momentum will win. Now if aircraft is approaching the runway and crosses the bars, they are considered on the runway.

Regarding your comment about EGF. You're right, he didn't look, but guess what? What was he doing turning that way...how does he know I want him to go that way? They just switched to my frequency, he doesn't have the picture. No excuses.

Also, looking at the reference in 2-3-5 you are talking about. It talks about general stuff regarding these hold markings. It clearly mentions them in regards to "approaching a runway" in paragraph a. It talks mostly of this "approaching" maneuver later on and then talks about uncontrolled airports. Generally though right? :)

Anyways, take a look next time you are out flying and see where some of this exiting traffic is when people are crossing the threshold and departing. Things would be a lot more difficult if we had to wait and make sure the rudder wasn't an inch across the line before issuing the next clearance eh?
 

whysoserial

New Member
Neat. Thanks for that.

I'll be slightly less paranoid about getting my entire butt past the hold lines as quickly as possible. Slightly.:)
I hope everyone knows that I'm not encouraging anyone to NOT cross the bars, just giving you something to think about at a towered airport. There's plenty of controllers who don't know this and will insist the pilot to cross the hold bars if they're stopped and not all the way across, not completely necessary. The controller should continue to conduct business. I am a pilot too, we all know there's a group who think those lines are supposed to always be in front of them so a little encouraging is sometimes needed, usually if someone is exiting behind them, obviously. Plus, when you stop short of the bars you are allowed to cross, you look like a stupid head :)
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
This is right out of the aim guys.

4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
It is out the AIM, but it's clearly in contradiction to AIM 2-3-5. If they contradict each other, don't you think it would be prudent to adhere to the more conservative definition of "clear of the runway"? The purpose of hold short lines is to protect the safety area of the runway, so I think it would be wise to get past them ASAP.

You also conveniently didn't highlight the sentence that supports what we've been saying here.

AIM 4-3-20 said:
In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area.
We can't stop before being entirely clear of the hold lines unless you guys tell us! The way this is worded, they want us off the runway at all costs--including intruding on taxiways.

Regarding your comment about EGF. You're right, he didn't look, but guess what? What was he doing turning that way...how does he know I want him to go that way? They just switched to my frequency, he doesn't have the picture. No excuses.
I'm not making excuses for anyone who blindly turns into an oncoming aircraft, but there's plenty of places where you're either going to be stopped with your tail hanging over a hold short line (see above) or turning one direction or another on a parallel. It's difficult to know if you have part of your airplane over a line that's 100' behind you, so most captains I know will continue to keep moving slowly onto a parallel in the direction of the ramp once they've confirmed that there's not going to be any conflict with other traffic.

It's dumb to have to wait patiently for Uncle Bob in his 172 to stumble through a clearance readback to start taxiing towards a gate if it's pretty clear there's no one in the vicinty. That's why I'd say it was the Eagle's crew's lack of situational awareness that was the problem here, not necessarily their decision to head for a gate without contacting you without coming to a complete stop. Again, at many large airports, once you're clear of runways you're going to cause problems if you stop. Have you ever been to ORD? Pilots get spanked daily for stopping on the two major taxiways.
 

whysoserial

New Member
1. It is out the AIM, but it's clearly in contradiction to AIM 2-3-5. If they contradict each other, don't you think it would be prudent to adhere to the more conservative definition of "clear of the runway"? The purpose of hold short lines is to protect the safety area of the runway, so I think it would be wise to get past them ASAP.

2. You conveniently didn't highlight the sentence that supports what we've been saying here.
Huh? I've never conveniently did anything. I've already talked about intruding and already know it. You intrude while you are stopped. Period. If you want to taxi without a clearance, be my guest. I've never said to not cross the hold bars...I'm merely showing you black and white explanations on what happens daily at towered airports. You don't HAVE to be across...under the right situations which I've made clear. I've shown you exactly what I've been saying and you still don't want to accept it...that's fine.

We can't stop before being entirely clear of the hold lines unless you guys tell us! The way this is worded, they want us off the runway at all costs--including intruding on taxiways.
All this is talking about is a bigger airplane which is off a runway with a small exit area where there is nothing this bigger airplane can do short of shrinking itself. That's all. Nothing more. If you're plane is so long that it sticks into a taxiway, big deal...I know the rule and will deal with it accordingly.

You are talking about an entirely different subject here and keep bringing up this intruding thing, this intruding thing is known and well understood by many and is not a clearance to taxi which is what I'm talking about.

And as for the instruction part...that's one way to interpret it. But what I think the sentence really means is simply this...if I'm local and I see ground has an aircraft that may be a conflict for this larger aircraft...I will tell him to hold short of "Charlie" or whatever so he will NOT protrude out and ramrod this poor guy. Other cases, protrude all you want.

I'm not making excuses for anyone who blindly turns into an oncoming aircraft, but there's plenty of places where you're either going to be stopped with your tail hanging over a hold short line (see above) or turning one direction or another on a parallel. It's dumb to have to wait patiently for Uncle Bob in his 172 to stumble through a clearance readback to start taxiing towards a gate if it's pretty clear there's no one in the vicinty. That's why I'd say it was the Eagle's crew's lack of situational awareness that was the problem here, not necessarily their decision to head for a gate without contacting you before moving.
Hey dude, taxi without a clearance all you want. I won't write you up. Be ready for a good reason to explain yourself one day should it happen...and not wanting to wait for Uncle Bob to read back a clearance is not a good enough reason. Neither is "it looked pretty clear".

Make up your own rules and interpretations, I don't care. Error on the side that you think the aim is telling you to secretly do. You think the aim contradicts itself, I think it makes perfect sense. You have to look at the situation of it all and apply the right rules which are spelled out. And read what it's talking about it...fully...you can't pick out one sentence and ignore the rest of the paragraph. (See my "approaching" reference).

Do you freak out when you hear an aircraft cleared for takeoff when you haven't passed the hold bars yet? Or how about when another plane touches down behind you and you still haven't gotten across? Do you got around when the plane in front of you isn't across the bars? Maybe not off the runway and still 1,000 ft from the next exit? (You probably fly a CAT III so that one would actually matter, or would it?) All these things should scare you according to your interpretation. According to you, they are illegal. Or are they? Ah, whatever.

My job is CYA, do what you want but bet that I'll have my end covered.
 
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