Any Kit Builders/Fliers?

TheFlyingTurkey

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
So I'm in the pre- pre- stages of looking into building a kit plane. I'm looking for an economical way to get back into flying, and I think a kit might be a good option. It would also be a great way to bond with and teach my young twin boys about aviation and develop their mechanical abilities. And when it's done I can instruct them how to fly too!

Or, is it cheaper to just buy a 35-40 year old C-172?

So, if you've got kit building and/or flying experience what did you build and why did you pick that airplane? Are there models that are easier to build? Better reputations? Better customer support? I've got plenty of time, so what are realistic build times? Any info would be appreciated!
 
If you are truly set on building something, I would suggest looking hard at some half baked projects. There are oodles of them, and can be had for quite a discount. Just like any other a/c acquisition decision, figure your mission first, and find a design that suits it. Boring holes in the sky cheap, or taking your family 1000 miles?

I have not built, never had the space for that large of a project. My off the cuff guess is the 35 year old 172 will be much cheaper because you probably will be able to sell it for close (sometimes more than!) to what you bought it for. I would also guess that you would not start building an aircraft of similar capabilities to save money. You get nickle and dime'd to death on every front. Tools, paint, instruments, etc. Not saying it can't be done, it has, but the potential is there....
 
What kind of flying are you interested in and what is your budget? I built a Team Himax for $7K and I know folks that have $100K in their Vans RV-x. Do you enjoy building as much as flying? Many kit planes have horrible resale value, you might consider a completed kit. My next project is a powered-parachute.
 
I worked on a Sonerai IIL for a while, I still think they are probably dollar for dollar one of the best deals if you're willing to build from plans. Yes there are some very good deals on certified aircraft that need a little work, but they can cost more than you realize if not careful or are slightly unlucky. There are some excellent deals on kits. I have a student who bought a 150 for $10,000, I have a student who bought a 172 for $8,000, I have a student who bought a Zenith 701 partially completed kit for $4,000.... there's lots of good deals out there, just need to keep your eyes open, not be afraid to make offers and do your homework.
 
I would second the 'look for a part-built' advice.

I piked up my Venture for a song, and will have less in it in total than the majority of RV's. Even with an expensive engine and all the toys.
 
I would say you're VERY likely going to be able to get a little 150 or older model 172 for much cheaper than the price it would be to build. That being said, I've been considering it myself a lot lately and have some bold aspirations for what I want to do when I get out of college and can afford it.
 
If you feel pretty confident in your building ability. There are T hangars full of 1/2 assembled RV's and such all over the country. You can often get a lot of avionics and goodies for pennies on the dollar. I saw an RV about 70% finished with dual 530's, autopilot, and some other cool stuff sell for $20,000 about 5 years ago.

If you just want a plane, I'd go the C-172 route. Those can be found fairly easily and they aren't hard to move if you need to sell it later.
 
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Sonex........:bounce:
 
One thing I'd say, is if you are looking for a single seat aircraft (which is doesn't seem like you are), it's almost always going to be cheaper to buy than build.
 
I love the Onex by Sonex. It wouldn't fit your mission as it's only a single seater, but I'd love to build one eventually.
 
I'm not even sure what my mission would be. I definitely want at least two seats so I can instruct, either students or my kids. I'm an HVAC technician also, so I am very mechanically inclined and work well with tools, and I love to build things. So a 2 seat kit plane would be a great choice for that.

However, I would really like to travel with the family from IL to FL to visit grandma. That would require a 4 place plane that could really seat 4 people and a dog + bags. I'm thinking it would be tough to do on the cheap. Maybe a 172 with a ton of fuel stops.

I guess I was just thinking about something cheap to cruise around the local area in, maybe even go to AirVenture and camp out under the wing. (Not too far from the Chicago area).
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
I'm not even sure what my mission would be. I definitely want at least two seats so I can instruct, either students or my kids. I'm an HVAC technician also, so I am very mechanically inclined and work well with tools, and I love to build things. So a 2 seat kit plane would be a great choice for that.

However, I would really like to travel with the family from IL to FL to visit grandma. That would require a 4 place plane that could really seat 4 people and a dog + bags. I'm thinking it would be tough to do on the cheap. Maybe a 172 with a ton of fuel stops.

I guess I was just thinking about something cheap to cruise around the local area in, maybe even go to AirVenture and camp out under the wing. (Not too far from the Chicago area).
Click to expand...

Sell some crack, buy a king air.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
I'm not even sure what my mission would be. I definitely want at least two seats so I can instruct, either students or my kids. I'm an HVAC technician also, so I am very mechanically inclined and work well with tools, and I love to build things. So a 2 seat kit plane would be a great choice for that.

However, I would really like to travel with the family from IL to FL to visit grandma. That would require a 4 place plane that could really seat 4 people and a dog + bags. I'm thinking it would be tough to do on the cheap. Maybe a 172 with a ton of fuel stops.

I guess I was just thinking about something cheap to cruise around the local area in, maybe even go to AirVenture and camp out under the wing. (Not too far from the Chicago area).
Click to expand...

Start by reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Kit-Airplane-...746&sr=8-1&keywords=kit+airplane+construction

I just finished it. It will answer most of your questions I think. You really need to set out your goals. A used certified aircraft will definitely be cheaper up front, building my own appeals to me because all of the maintenance, including the annual inspections can be performed by yours truly. On a completed purchased homebuild you can do your own maintenance, but an A&P still needs to do the annuals.

All aircraft are compromises, and you will find kits that might be closer tailored to your needs and wants than any certified aircraft, however you cannot use an aircraft certified as an experimental homebuild for commercial purposes. Some pilots/instructors do offer transition training, but I believe they get around the commercial purposes by charging for the instruction and not the use of the plane. This would make primary instruction in a homebuild very impractical for the student and the instructor, not to mention that check-rides must be taken in standard aircraft or S-LSAs

I am in currently in the process of buying all the tools and preparing to build. Another aspect that appeals to me about homebuilds is that I can purchase that parts piecemeal and not be in debt when the plane is ready to fly. However I do expect to spend between $85k-100k to build a two-place Vans, and I expect the process to take 3-5 years from the day I finally order the first part of the kit. If you want to take the whole family, as far as Vans Aircraft go, the RV-10 is your only option and they cost ~$200k to build, but you get range and speed that is Cirrus-like, and it might still not be large enough for the dog. I can't tell you about other kit builds, but the support community surrounding Vans Aircraft is top-notch, and there are more Vans flying than any other kit build which is why I intend to build an RV. On the used market, you can find nice Vans for sale for about the same price as cost to build.

I can't tout that book enough. If you get through the first chapter and you still want to build, then you should build. Buying a partially completed kit as mentioned above can be sketchy in my opinion because 1) during the certification process you need to prove that you completed 51% of the building tasks, and 2) you can't be sure of the quality of the work that you didn't do. I would by a flying kit with several hundred hours before I bought a partially completed one.

We need Fencer to chime in here.

Just my $.02 My practical experience with kit builds involves ~14 logged in an RV-9A (it was a dream), but I have done all the research.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
I'm not even sure what my mission would be. I definitely want at least two seats so I can instruct, either students or my kids. I'm an HVAC technician also, so I am very mechanically inclined and work well with tools, and I love to build things. So a 2 seat kit plane would be a great choice for that.

However, I would really like to travel with the family from IL to FL to visit grandma. That would require a 4 place plane that could really seat 4 people and a dog + bags. I'm thinking it would be tough to do on the cheap. Maybe a 172 with a ton of fuel stops.

I guess I was just thinking about something cheap to cruise around the local area in, maybe even go to AirVenture and camp out under the wing. (Not too far from the Chicago area).
Click to expand...

Not to shoot down your idea, but the process to offer instruction in an experimental you own is very long and difficult to go down. Even then, all you can do is offer transition training.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
I guess I was just thinking about something cheap to cruise around the local area in, maybe even go to AirVenture and camp out under the wing. (Not too far from the Chicago area).
Click to expand...


On the cheap, I'd look at older Kitfox or Avid Flyer partially built kits. You can run geared 2-strokes which are much cheaper though you'll have more frequent overhauls and trailer it home... fine for local fun flying and the occassional minimalist camping outing. Some of the most fun I've had was flying a 2-stroke Avid in the midwest.

One thing people dont realize about older kits that have been sitting in a hangar partially built for 15+ years, is often there are numerous updates that were made to the design for safety and you might want to consider adding them, but that's not always straight forward on the older models...often its nearly as complicated as making your own design modifications which almost always result in a LOT of downstream headaches, further changes, a LOT more time and added cost. Nothing is a "simple change".

Also, as my student with the CH-701 found out, you might realize when you get into it that the original builder(s) didn't have your same standards, and you end up taking a lot of the kit apart, refabricating bad parts, and doubling or tripling work time on some areas.

Another option is a basket case Piper tail dragger. Simple tube and fabric, proven and easy to work on, if you stick with something like a J3, very simple systems.... just pretty much dissassembly, replace bad parts, refinish. WagAero carries most anything you need to supplement. Not really any more work than a kitbuilt and with a cooperative A&P to review and sign off on your work as you go, you can retain the standard airworthiness certification and use it for instruction later. Knew a guy and his son that rebuilt a J3 Cub this way in wayyyy less time and for wayyyy less money than most people put into a kit.
 
rframe said:
On the cheap, I'd look at older Kitfox or Avid Flyer partially built kits. You can run geared 2-strokes which are much cheaper though you'll have more frequent overhauls and trailer it home... fine for local fun flying and the occassional minimalist camping outing. Some of the most fun I've had was flying a 2-stroke Avid in the midwest.

One thing people dont realize about older kits that have been sitting in a hangar partially built for 15+ years, is often there are numerous updates that were made to the design for safety and you might want to consider adding them, but that's not always straight forward on the older models...often its nearly as complicated as making your own design modifications which almost always result in a LOT of downstream headaches, further changes, a LOT more time and added cost. Nothing is a "simple change".
Click to expand...


I thought about a two stroke 2 seater, but then I realized, I rarely take someone with me, so to heck with it. The Challenger II line has been updated thru the years but one thing the designers did was make everything backwards compatible.
 
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