Any impact yet?

"I have been called a negative person but really I'm not."

I wasn't calling you a negative person. It only seemed like you were trying to get us to stop talking about the subject....like we weren't entitled to our opinions or something.

"I don't think airlines are the career they once were, nor will they ever be, but there are certainly folks out there that will enjoy it."

I agree with that...

"Bashing Mesa is a hot button of mine."

It's a hot button of mine, too, but we are on opposite sides of the spectrum...nothing wrong with that. Like I said, I have a lot of friends there who say stuff that doesn't sound too good. Plus, I'm about as pro-union/anti-management as they come...next to Doug and MikeD. I honestly think the whole Freedom thing was JO's way of breaking the union. It worked...and it sucks. You are right....that was JO's job and he's good at it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bashing Mesa is a hot button of mine. The airline gets a bad rap. Most of the bad things at Mesa exist at all airlines. Some things are unique - but every airline has its hell points. Personally, Eagle was the worst airline I ever worked at, but I know a lot of people who love it there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is bashing of Mesa a hot button of yours? What's your stake there? Mesa is simply reaping what it's sown. They've earned the negativity they get, along with the Great Lakes', the CC Air's, the Golden Pacific's, etc, et al. Mesa just happens to be the biggest and most visible of them all.
 
"Biggest" being the key word I guess.

Mesa was the best years of my airline life. They treated me better than any other airline. I'm sorry things have gone to hell in the industry, really I am. I had a blast there.

People were bashing it before I got there though, and I discovered it was unjustified.

Let me post this one more time - reasons that Mesa got a bad rap:
1) large and successful
2) Many inexperienced pilots who are frustrated by AIRLINE things (would happen anywhere. Coming from another airline, I realized that.)
3) Difficulties associated with outbasing and large scale management.

Mesa has a lot of incompetence. This is not uncommon in the industry!

Eagle had HOSTILITY. So did Midway. There were rules and procedures put in place just to piss off the pilots. Commonly.

Things like that were very rare at Mesa. I felt like a member of a team, the underdogs, we were struggling to complete the day. Dispatch and Crew Scheduling worked with the pilots (for the most part. Of course there were exceptions, like the famous Queen B.)
 
[ QUOTE ]
"Biggest" being the key word I guess.

Mesa was the best years of my airline life. They treated me better than any other airline. I'm sorry things have gone to hell in the industry, really I am. I had a blast there.

People were bashing it before I got there though, and I discovered it was unjustified.

Let me post this one more time - reasons that Mesa got a bad rap:
1) large and successful
2) Many inexperienced pilots who are frustrated by AIRLINE things (would happen anywhere. Coming from another airline, I realized that.)
3) Difficulties associated with outbasing and large scale management.

Mesa has a lot of incompetence. This is not uncommon in the industry!

Eagle had HOSTILITY. So did Midway. There were rules and procedures put in place just to piss off the pilots. Commonly.

Things like that were very rare at Mesa. I felt like a member of a team, the underdogs, we were struggling to complete the day. Dispatch and Crew Scheduling worked with the pilots (for the most part. Of course there were exceptions, like the famous Queen B.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that you were at Mesa, and things might have been peachy; but according to every Mesa pilot I've talked to since, it's gone way downhill from there. And this is a cross-section of San Juaners, regular pilots, MAPDers, etc. Seems things changed for the worse since you were there.

How do you think Mesa became large and successful in the CEO's eyes? WHO do you think paid the price for them to be how they are?

Answer: The pilots working for free. The low pay and QOL.

JO is a scumbag for how he runs his operation, albeit he's a brilliant scumbag, since he has so many minions willingly building his empire....

.....and even more rooting for him.
 
After reading this post I decided to go through some of DE727's previous posts. He indeed has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to a 300 hour pilot flying an RJ VS a 1200 hour CFI. I noticed a few threads he participated in where he attempted to beat up Flight Safety Academy and their ASA program. I know several people who went to FSA and did go through ASA's program flying the RJ at 300-400 hours. These guy's are good and have never had to be babysat for any period of time. They recieve the same interview and checkride in the level D as any 1200 hour CFI or 4000 hour 135 guy off the street.

As far as Mesa's program, I do not have any experience with it BUT...... If the guy's can pass the ride losing an engine on the missed heading for the hold after flying the ILS down to mins and the check pilot is satisfied then great.

IMO...the only real experience that comes from insrtructing that would make any difference between a 300 hour and a 1200 hour CFI is instrument instructing. Even that depends on how many hours of instrument dual given they have. I know guy's who hold only a CFI certificate that have 1200+ hours and an instrument ticket. Does the 900 hours of PPL instruction make him a better candidate for the RJ? NO.......

IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND THEIR TRAINING...

I know low time pilots who are sharp and can fly the pants off of some VERY high time pilots.....

Think about it.

IP
 
"Experience" and stick-and-rudder skills are two different things.

1200 hours, even if it's *just* sheparding students around the pattern, equates to a lot of PIC decisions, CRM work, weather analysis decisions, communication skills (and I don't mean on the radio), understanding personalities and learning styles, skill analysis and compensation techniques (to name just a few areas of *experience*). Maybe we could ask some of the high-time airline pilots *cough*DE727*cough* if any of those skills make for a safer, more competent pilot?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that you were at Mesa, and things might have been peachy; but according to every Mesa pilot I've talked to since, it's gone way downhill from there. And this is a cross-section of San Juaners, regular pilots, MAPDers, etc. Seems things changed for the worse since you were there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems things have changed for the worse everywhere. I don't see it any worse at Mesa (by degree) than at say, Delta.
 
"I decided to go through some of DE727's previous posts. He indeed has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to a 300 hour pilot flying an RJ"

Yes I do. Said chip also exisits for scabs, PFTer's, and big academy marketing. Hope you enjoyed reading all my posts.

"I know several people who went to FSA and did go through ASA's program flying the RJ at 300-400 hours. These guy's are good and have never had to be babysat for any period of time."

I disagree. Any pilot with that low of time is going to lack experience in the real world. They can get through training fine. But the first couple of hundred hours they will be sub par compared to guys with more experience or a wider variety of backgrounds. The training world isn't the same as real world.

"Think about it."

I have been...since 1978.
 
[ QUOTE ]


"Think about it."

I have been...since 1978.

[/ QUOTE ]

With almost 1300 posts you must do a lot of thinking, huh? All kidding aside, I don't think anyone will argue that having a more experienced pilot is safer.

Xjet is at 600/100 for everyone, not people doing a training program there. Maybe companies are actually realizing that lower time guys can handle the environment safely.

~wheelsup
 
If you look at history. Requirements go down as necessary to fill classes. XJT has a problem as they are expanding at the same time as CO is recalling guys who flowed down after furlough. They have a lot of seats to fill.

During times of low pilot demand, 1500 total and 500 multi was more the norm at the regionals. There was even a time, way back, where you had to agree to pay for your own ground school and sim training (at 20K plus)....many of the regionals got away with this until pressure from the unions and the supply/demand curve swung more in the favor of pilots.

I've always said low time guys can get through training. My beef is with the level of experience they bring to the cockpit outside the training enviornment.

"Safety" is a relative term. Safety levels are compromised in this business for economic reasons....I see it all the time. For years pax airlines had TCAS mandated while freighters didn't. Again...pressure from the unions helped us get TCAS at UPS.

300 hour jet F/O's who get through training meet the "minimum" standard. Basically, I would like to see the bar set higher. As a high time F/O with Capts seniority for the last 7 years, I've seen the importance bringing experienced F/O's to the cockpit.

It boils down to this....

You guys that are proponents of the low time F/O's think that it's all about training. If you "train" a guy properly, he can equal someone with "thousands of hours of experience" (there is actually an ad that says that). It's my view that experience takes time, and it's not something you can get enough of in a training enviornment (unless it's military).

Is a guy with 1000 total and has been a CFI going to be more successful in RJ training than a guy with 300 hours who went through an RJ course. Nope. Is he going to be a more well rounded and more highly experienced pilot. Yep. Let's say they both get though RJ initial at an airline and are now jet F/O's. The 300 hour guy still has less overall experience and background as a pilot as the 1000 hour CFI. I'd rather fly with the higher time guy....

You're gonna say both guys are equally qualified in the eyes of God, the FAA, and the airline. Yep. But in my view the higher time guy makes a better F/O.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Xjet is at 600/100 for everyone, ...Maybe companies are actually realizing that lower time guys can handle the environment safely.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are soooooo far off base, you aren't even in the ballpark anymore.

They are lowering their mins for one reason and one reason ONLY. High time guys will not apply for that low of pay and bad QOL.

Which do you think all the JOs out there would prefer to hire, 600 or 6000 hours??
6000 hour guys said NO, and quit applying.
So they lowered the bar to 5000 hours.
Then they quit applying,
So they lower it to 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000, now 600.
Ever time the bar has been lowered it was lowered to attract enough people to fill their slots.

Why else would it be necessary to lower mins to 600 when there are thousands of jet proficient pilots with 5000+ hours on furlough??? Think about it. Because the "experienced" pilots would rather work at Lowe's than fly an RJ for 17K.

With respect to the low timers, Commuters have gotten to the bottom of the experience barrel. It is NOT a complement that they hired low timers, or a testament to the "high quality" training at the factories. They hire the low timers BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO. They dangle a big shiny aluminum carrot in from of newbies and they jump on it like a starving rabbit. Because they'll "only have to put up with for a few years” until they can apply somewhere else."

It is very disheartening to see our profession being drug down.
It used to be hard to get on without a military background. Then they wouldn't talk to you without a 4 year degree. Now all they want is "High School graduate or equivalent." That tells you that they aren't looking for "smart/trainable pilots," they just want a pulse that will fly a shiny jet for minimum wage (or less).
 
[ QUOTE ]

Xjet is at 600/100 for everyone, not people doing a training program there. Maybe companies are actually realizing that lower time guys can handle the environment safely.

~wheelsup

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh young Padawan.......much to learn.
 
How many times since 1978 have you run to the practice area and back with a PPL to repeat the same maneuver, flying in and out of the same airport, performing the same short, soft, or crosswind landing???

I am one of those instructors (part time now) and I will tell you my point is this.... The 1200 hour CFI is no better at any of that than the 300-400 hour guy (granted the lower time guy did well and learned to apply and correlate what he learned in his training). Honestly, a 2000 hour CFI flying out of the same airport isn't much better than a good 300-400 hour guy.

I know some will argue the "PIC decision making as an instructor", and "learning to read and work with others in a crew environment", BUT....... The brutal honest truth is that an instructors average day is going to the same practice area and back, going on the same X-country flight that they have memorized, flying the SAME approaches to the same airports in which they have memorized the freqs, radials, arcs, MDA's, DA's, req. vis. etc. I know because I have done the same.....

Does any of that sound like real world experience? Hell no..... This is why regionals like ASA and Mesa only keep a few pilot slots open for CFI's for every ground school and the first thing they look for in their logbook is whether or not they flew around the same airports for 1200 hours or flew to a diverse number of airports in different states. It does make a difference.

Any of you see my point between the 300-400 hour guy and the complacent 1200 CFI that flew in and out of the same airport yet?

BTW, I am not by all means saying that ALL CFI's are this way but MOST are or maybe it would be better to say that MOST have VERY limited real world experience that you are talking about...

It's not rocket science guy's.... just because they have 1200 hours of the same hours doesn't mean they have 800 more hours of "real world" experience that WE ALL WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN THE COCKPIT OF A CRJ..

I think I am up to .03 now...
grin.gif


IP
 
"Honestly, a 2000 hour CFI flying out of the same airport isn't much better than a good 300-400 hour guy."

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree....
 
Wow. Gone for two weeks, and it erupts into a fireball......

First off, I have to say something about wheelsup. He was one of my MEIs in ORL before the hurricane decided to royally screw up my plans. I learned a LOT from him in only two lessons, so his opinion holds clout with me. He's not a starry eyed FNG that paid daddy's money to go to MAPD, DCA, TAB Express or another pilot mill. He's INSTRUCTING at MAPD to build hours to move on.

Second (and I can't believe I'm going to say this) I agree with JT. Monday morning QBing about Mesa isn't very productive. The current group there basically got thrown over a barrel by guys looking for a quick upgrade so they could get the hell out and off to United or some other major. Now, they have to deal with it. They're working on getting their contract changed, but the funny thing about contracts is they can only be re-neogtiated at certain times, not whenever the pilot group feels like it.

Third, we can talk until we're blue in the face about low time vs high time pilots, but I don't think we're going to change anyone's minds. It's too much like politics and religion. The comment about the CFI that only flies out of one airport to and from the practice field for 1200 hours was right on, IMO. It's the QUALITY of your experience and not the QUANTITY. If all you do is teach slow flight, stalls, steep turns, etc out of an uncontrolled field, I really don't see how that makes you better qualified to fly a jet than a 300 hour guy that has pretty much done the same thing without the teaching part.

This is all coming from someone that was gung-ho on the MAPD program several months ago. I don't know where Mesa is going to be in two years, so I don't feel comfortable giving San Juan (NOT Mesa, the school gets the money, not JO) my hard earned cash. I'd rather spend that money on cross countries and CFI ratings, then apply at a regional that might still have a good contract and relationships with non-bankrupt carriers.
 
"I don't think we're going to change anyone's minds."

That's for sure.

"so I don't feel comfortable giving San Juan (NOT Mesa, the school gets the money, not JO)"

Are you saying Mesa, of which JO is the CEO, has nothing to do with MAPD, financial wise?
 
"Monday morning QBing about Mesa isn't very productive"

I think it is and here's why....

"The current group there basically got thrown over a barrel by guys looking for a quick upgrade so they could get the hell out and off to United or some other major. Now, they have to deal with it."

I agree.

I think it's important to point out that when a small group (very small group) goes against the..."union grain"...so to speak. It can wreak havok on your pilot group in trying to raise the bar. That's what happened with Freedom.

Why you and JT think it's not productive to point this out is beyond me. I think it's damn productive to remember how this happened and try to keep it from happening again in the future. History will repeat itself and I hope we can learn from it.
 
Not only unproductive, but unwarranted.

When I was at Mesa in the supposed "Golden Years" we had the worst rap in the industry. They put us at a notch above Gulfstream (seriously.) I was accused of paying for training, flying jets for $15k a year, scabbing, etc etc etc(none of which was true.) And yet it was still the best place I've been to in my airline career.

Everyone whines about Mesa for the reasons I have given several times.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The current group there basically got thrown over a barrel by guys looking for a quick upgrade so they could get the hell out and off to United or some other major. Now, they have to deal with it. They're working on getting their contract changed, but the funny thing about contracts is they can only be re-neogtiated at certain times, not whenever the pilot group feels like it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You were not at Mesa during their last contract negotiations. You have no first hand knowledge of what went on. Freedom was a lot more complicated than most people are aware. The propagation of the "viewpoint" that you just described is only a fraction of the story. The propagation of only one side of the story does little, if anything to improve pilot unity at Mesa.

Additionally, there are no attempts to "change the contract". There are grievances on file by the union as to certain alleged contract violations, and a "contract enforcement" campaign, but no attempts to change the contract.

Ray
 
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