Any impact yet?

[ QUOTE ]
but the fact remains that the airline pilots of this thread and this board, that do the job day in and day out, don't agree with you

[/ QUOTE ]

I could throw just as many airline pilot opinions the other way. A lot of the pilots I talked to at SWA said MAPD was one of the better ways to make it. Same with HP pilots. Obviously there are a lot of Mesa guys that say the same thing, but that's b/c most of them went through the program.
 
[ QUOTE ]
HR is hiring low time pilots because they have to. The experienced pilots aren't applying to them anymore. Ever wonder why mins are so low, when 10,000 major airline guys are furloughed???? Think about it. Then ask, "What do they know that I don't?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, the wage they would make starting over at a regional wouldn't cover the quality of life they're used to. Plus, some regionals won't touch you if your furloughed unless you give up your seniority number at your other airline. What's to say you won't say "Sorry, gotta go" right after training? That's a lot of money invested right down the drain. I don't think there's a magical answer those 10,000 guys know, it's each individual's situation.
 
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the wage they would make starting over at a regional wouldn't cover the quality of life they're used to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, they are out of a job. Their wage is $0.00! Any job is better than nothing. There are 10,000 hour major pilots working in Home Depot instead of applying to a regional. You can sugar coat it all you want.

[ QUOTE ]
...some regionals won't touch you if your furloughed

[/ QUOTE ]
And what about the guys from defunct airlines with no recall rights, hmmm?

[ QUOTE ]
What's to say you won't say "Sorry, gotta go" right after training?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, that's what the marketing is department is going to say.
The fact is, they want inexperienced (CHEAP), and naive labor that will work for scraps under the premise of "doing the job you love." They also know guys don't know what is on the other side of the fence.

Read some of the Regional threads on flightinfo.com. Specifically about the Pinnacle RJ crash. The pilot community jumped all over some of the posters who said they "put it in VS and read the paper." Or, It's not unusual to get the stick shaker in levelout/cruise."

When you listen to some of these guys (on the board and in person) it is clear they have no understanding of high altitude flight or what is or is not normal. And believe me, getting a stick shaker is NOT normal.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yea, that's what the marketing is department is going to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where that came from. FYI, I'm choosing NOT to go the MAPD route, therefore I really don't care what their marketting dept says. The statement about not hiring furloughed pilots unless they give up their seniority number was from human resourced people not marketting. Now if I wanted pretty pictures of airplanes or travel destination posters, then I'd call marketting.
 
Perhaps seniority is the root of the problem. Explain why ALPA never insisted on keeping some form of seniority for furloughed pilots that decide to jump between ALPA airlines in support of their families. It gives the non-airline types the impression that experience doesn’t count; the only thing that counts is the almighty seniority number. When it comes to putting food on the table, a pilot should have the choice.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Biggest" being the key word I guess.

Mesa was the best years of my airline life. They treated me better than any other airline. I'm sorry things have gone to hell in the industry, really I am. I had a blast there.

People were bashing it before I got there though, and I discovered it was unjustified.

Let me post this one more time - reasons that Mesa got a bad rap:
1) large and successful
2) Many inexperienced pilots who are frustrated by AIRLINE things (would happen anywhere. Coming from another airline, I realized that.)
3) Difficulties associated with outbasing and large scale management.

Mesa has a lot of incompetence. This is not uncommon in the industry!

Eagle had HOSTILITY. So did Midway. There were rules and procedures put in place just to piss off the pilots. Commonly.

Things like that were very rare at Mesa. I felt like a member of a team, the underdogs, we were struggling to complete the day. Dispatch and Crew Scheduling worked with the pilots (for the most part. Of course there were exceptions, like the famous Queen B.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that you were at Mesa, and things might have been peachy; but according to every Mesa pilot I've talked to since, it's gone way downhill from there. And this is a cross-section of San Juaners, regular pilots, MAPDers, etc. Seems things changed for the worse since you were there.

How do you think Mesa became large and successful in the CEO's eyes? WHO do you think paid the price for them to be how they are?

Answer: The pilots working for free. The low pay and QOL.

JO is a scumbag for how he runs his operation, albeit he's a brilliant scumbag, since he has so many minions willingly building his empire....

.....and even more rooting for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think JT is sick of hearing people who know nothing about Mesa....like MikeD....act like they understand everything about it. Mike, I think it's great that you know so many Mesa pilots that tell you how it is, but I promise you, since I work here, I know more than you do. Some of your statements are total BS. Mesa pilots salaries are comparable to most of the other regionals....quit talking out of your as_.
I happen to be quitting the airline business, but it isn't because of Mesa...it is the industry in general. Low pay is everywhere at the regionals.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Biggest" being the key word I guess.

Mesa was the best years of my airline life. They treated me better than any other airline. I'm sorry things have gone to hell in the industry, really I am. I had a blast there.

People were bashing it before I got there though, and I discovered it was unjustified.

Let me post this one more time - reasons that Mesa got a bad rap:
1) large and successful
2) Many inexperienced pilots who are frustrated by AIRLINE things (would happen anywhere. Coming from another airline, I realized that.)
3) Difficulties associated with outbasing and large scale management.

Mesa has a lot of incompetence. This is not uncommon in the industry!

Eagle had HOSTILITY. So did Midway. There were rules and procedures put in place just to piss off the pilots. Commonly.

Things like that were very rare at Mesa. I felt like a member of a team, the underdogs, we were struggling to complete the day. Dispatch and Crew Scheduling worked with the pilots (for the most part. Of course there were exceptions, like the famous Queen B.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that you were at Mesa, and things might have been peachy; but according to every Mesa pilot I've talked to since, it's gone way downhill from there. And this is a cross-section of San Juaners, regular pilots, MAPDers, etc. Seems things changed for the worse since you were there.

How do you think Mesa became large and successful in the CEO's eyes? WHO do you think paid the price for them to be how they are?

Answer: The pilots working for free. The low pay and QOL.

JO is a scumbag for how he runs his operation, albeit he's a brilliant scumbag, since he has so many minions willingly building his empire....

.....and even more rooting for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think JT is sick of hearing people who know nothing about Mesa....like MikeD....act like they understand everything about it. Mike, I think it's great that you know so many Mesa pilots that tell you how it is, but I promise you, since I work here, I know more than you do. Some of your statements are total BS. Mesa pilots salaries are comparable to most of the other regionals....quit talking out of your as_.
I happen to be quitting the airline business, but it isn't because of Mesa...it is the industry in general. Low pay is everywhere at the regionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm simply calling it like it is. You gonna try and tell me that things re peachy-keen at YV or ZV? Sure, you know the day to day since you work(ed) there, but that doesn't make anything I'm saying about Mesa's leadership and CEO any less accurate, does it?

And just like every other Mesa supporter out there, you conveniently omit or just fail to see/read how I lump all regionals into the "crappy pay and QOL" slot, some more than others, but they all share the same general game. For the n'th time, it doesn't matter whether it's Mesa, CC Air, Great Lakes, etc, etc; they're all in the same boat. Mesa just happened to be the focus of my discussion. So read the thread thoroughly, buy some SA, and know what you're responding to before you do.

If you think I'm wrong about Mesa and that things really are hunky-dory there, then tell me I'm wrong, gear boy. Mesa really is a great place to work, or whatever. Otherwise, you're just another JO-buddy like others in this forum that have some sort of stake in that place, though for the life of me I couldn't figure out why.
 
How do you think Mesa became large and successful in the CEO's eyes? WHO do you think paid the price for them to be how they are?

Answer: The pilots working for free. The low pay and QOL.



[/ QUOTE ]

I am responding to this quote. I don't see anything about every other regional here. Every other regional is not becoming lare and successful. I'm a little confucious MikeD.

It's guys like you who spout off about things they don't know, then innocent people read your comments, and I have instructors ask me how I could fly a jet for free because I work for Mesa, and I must answer them that I make a little short of $30k for 2nd year fo on the jet. When I upgrade in 2 years, I will be making close to $50k. I'm sick of stupid comments from guys at other airlines as well who read the same stuff.
So MikeD, I know I can't change your opinion, and you will continue to say Mesa pilots work for free...that is your perogative. I have said my peace....and now I feel better.
 
Astin called it the way it is. Mesa gets bashed because they are BIG.

They by far do not have the worst contract or working conditions. Try Gulfstream, Colgan or Great Lakes for example.

However those are all pretty small so no one picks on them.
 
Astin/Tenney and all other Mesa Kool Aid drinkers that apparently can't see something I've written more than once about ALL regionals.

Talk about low SA, Astin, the quote I gave was because we happened to be talking about Mesa at that particular time. What part of that are you incapable of understanding? Same goes for you too, Tenney. Are you copying me? You're about the only one I know that happens to love Mesa management, and for the life of me, I can't understand why you gladly keep the blinders on that you do. Can you explain?

Now, if we were talking about a number of the other regionals, I'd say the same thing, including details specific to their problems.

Now, do I need to repeat this again, or can you guys get it right the first time?

Astin, about the "innocent" CFIs that might be reading this, give me a freaking break. If they're not smart enough to do their own homework on different places to work, that's their own problem.

Oh and by the way, Astin, you never said I was wrong about how things are at YV/ZV. Peachy keen, or same as the other guys?

And, I'm sorry, but is $30K for 2nd year FO on a jet supposed to be good pay? Do you have any pride as a professional?

THAT attitude is a major part of the problem with pay issues. Guys get a couple of bucks and a white shirt with 3 stripes, and are only too happy to be eating top ramen for dinner every night.
rolleyes.gif
 
I'm not so sure about the seniority thing. Now if we had a single seniority list, I and 100% of the pilots on this board would be flipping burgers because you'd have TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Texas Air, PeoplExpress, Southern, Westair, Muse Air, Mark Air, Air Florida, Braniff, Eastern, etc in jobs from NWA 747-400 seats all the way down to Brasilia FO seats.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Astin called it the way it is. Mesa gets bashed because they are BIG.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nevermind the fact that this is a Mesa forum, largely ignored by most users so it attracts people that feel passionately either way about Mesa.

Certainly, by all means John, reapply for your job!
 
So what about me here is my dilema. 28 yrs. old turn 29 in July have several years of college ( but never graduated) most of which I wasn't too focused and wasted my life and time away.
Now I'm serious,dedicated and wanting to finish school start my career and everything.
I have read both sides of this arguement and agree and disagree with both.
But here is the facts of the matter I'm strongly considering MESA/MAPD the FBO route and other options. But haven't decided on anything.
I like MESA/MAPD cause I'm getting any younger and would like to have something to show for my life sooner rather then later. Furthermore there going to give me a degree and ratings all in one instead of going to school and flying on the side.
I'm not really so concerned with the guaranteed interview more so the fact that I can get a degree and my ratings all at once. Instead of dividing my attention two ways And if anything has been pressed firmly into my head on this site it is the importance of having a degree.
Maybe after graduation I will CFI or build hours while working another job or maybe apply for regional jobs or something.But that is after college and right now my main focus is on finishing college. Incidently having 300 hrs. and flying an RJ scares the sh*t outa me.
Am I one of those starry eyed kids who swallows the big flight schools advertising at face value....no but I used to be prior to becoming a member of JC.
I would of course welcome any idea's/advice that comes my way thanks in advance.

-Matthew
 
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and by the way, Astin, you never said I was wrong about how things are at YV/ZV. Peachy keen, or same as the other guys?

And, I'm sorry, but is $30K for 2nd year FO on a jet supposed to be good pay? Do you have any pride as a professional?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mike.....no it's not good pay, but it is industry average. That's what I'm trying to get across to you. Can you understand what that means. You take the average of all of the regionals, then you average them. Send me a PM and I'll explain what that entails.
I work 4 days on and have 3 to 4 days off, typically 13 days off per month. This is also industry average. Not great by any means.
I am getting out of the industry because many airlines have these schedules, and quite frankly, I don't want to live like this.
Mesa does not pay block or better, no duty rigs, and no cx pay.....which all sucks. If you are on reserve, they will try to ja you w/out regard to your senority. I have never said I "love" Mesa. I am simply trying to get the point across to you that when you say guys who work at Mesa work for free, you are incorrect.
Doug made $15k per year as an f/o for his regional, and not much more as a captain. I guess he has no pride as a professional either, nor do any other regional pilots. These are big words you are spouting out. I sure wish I could be like you and just avoid these lowly regionals and go straight to the majors. You must feel like a big man.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Hey Mike.....no it's not good pay, but it is industry average. That's what I'm trying to get across to you. Can you understand what that means. You take the average of all of the regionals, then you average them. Send me a PM and I'll explain what that entails.
I work 4 days on and have 3 to 4 days off, typically 13 days off per month. This is also industry average. Not great by any means.
I am getting out of the industry because many airlines have these schedules, and quite frankly, I don't want to live like this.
Mesa does not pay block or better, no duty rigs, and no cx pay.....which all sucks. If you are on reserve, they will try to ja you w/out regard to your senority. I have never said I "love" Mesa. I am simply trying to get the point across to you that when you say guys who work at Mesa work for free, you are incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

We finally agree on something. Industry standard is and should be unacceptable. Management of many of these regional carriers shouldn't be allowed to get away with this kind of employee treatment. You're sick of it and are getting out of it, I respect that. I'd respect if you stayed and fought for better too, but I don't know the details of your situation and hence, won't judge there.

[ QUOTE ]

Doug made $15k per year as an f/o for his regional, and not much more as a captain. I guess he has no pride as a professional either, nor do any other regional pilots. These are big words you are spouting out. I sure wish I could be like you and just avoid these lowly regionals and go straight to the majors. You must feel like a big man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when am I at the majors? Big man? No. Just someone that doesn't like what he's seeing in this industry. Pilots are being treated like slaves, and shouldn't be. I personally don't like that, and nor do you. Industry standard it may be, but it doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be. I'm still trying to figure out why this hasn't been addressed more and more by those in the union negotiating committees and MECs; the same ones that roll over for Mesa's JO each time he seemingly tells them to. The pilots deserve better than that, all of them.

My beef isn't with regionals, it's with regional management and those that empower them to treat employees like slaves. It's also with week pilot unions that don't seem to do anything other than take pilot dues.
 
[ QUOTE ]
.....no it's not good pay (30K), but it is industry average.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now let's be honest. That 30K included per diem didn't it?
You said two year CRJ FO.....But how many years at the company, and how many in type?


[ QUOTE ]
Doug made $15k per year as an f/o for his regional, and not much more as a captain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Foul! Too far out of date to be a valid comparison.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Astin called it the way it is. Mesa gets bashed because they are BIG.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nevermind the fact that this is a Mesa forum, largely ignored by most users so it attracts people that feel passionately either way about Mesa.

Certainly, by all means John, reapply for your job!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no intention of ever going back to any airline, even Mesa. I made more this year as a consultant than I did seven years total in the airlines.

I do not love Mesa mgt - JO is a CEO, that means he is necessarily not in favor of pilots, especially around contract time. He is no worse (and no better) than others like Steve Wolf, Leo Mullins, Bob Crandall, Don Carty, Bob Ferguson, Hulas (Uncle Hoolie) Kanodias and others of the same title and rank.

They are all guilty of slighting pilots - I believe it is in their job description.

I will not stand by however, and let you blame all the problems of the aviation world on Mesa Airlines. To do so is plainly ridiculous. It is not the bottom, nor is it anywhere near the top.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I will not stand by however, and let you blame all the problems of the aviation world on Mesa Airlines. To do so is plainly ridiculous. It is not the bottom, nor is it anywhere near the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree there are people that do that, I'm not. I'm being fair in saying, like I've always said, that all the regionals share blame for the state of the regionals today. Unions that didn't stand up for anything, allowing a variety of CEOs to have pilots woring for slave labor (not to mention the other enployees at the airline). Mesa shares the blame just as much as any other regional out there. I certainly don't rank Great Lakes or Colgan as any better in this regard.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I do not love Mesa mgt - JO is a CEO, that means he is necessarily not in favor of pilots, especially around contract time. He is no worse (and no better) than others like Steve Wolf, Leo Mullins, Bob Crandall, Don Carty, Bob Ferguson, Hulas (Uncle Hoolie) Kanodias and others of the same title and rank.

[/ QUOTE ]

I recognize a couple names in your list and believe most are retired so I'll say this. Why does everyone think it is ok to do something because someone else did it in the past? John, who cares if those others do it, it doesn't mean it is right.

So I'll say this, just because CEO's of the past screwed over their employees, DOES NOT make it acceptable to screw employees today or tomorrow.
 
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