Any impact yet?
- Thread starter TheWife
- Start date
It's like a big game of musical chairs at times. When the musics pumping and people are switching seats and such, most people are happy. But once the music stops, it's pretty easy to get jaded.
Like if I told the average student pilot that I'm pretty darned bored and somewhat jaded, they'd think I needed a psychological evaluation.
You can really put up with a lot when people are hiring, moving up the food chain, etc. But when things slow down, it's an entirely different perspective.
I have the malaise of dealing with a single management team who probably would have a difficult time understanding the McDonald's "Order By Number" system, but I certainly can't imagine the frustration of having to deal with the three different management groups each with a potential deleterious affect on YV.
Like if I told the average student pilot that I'm pretty darned bored and somewhat jaded, they'd think I needed a psychological evaluation.
You can really put up with a lot when people are hiring, moving up the food chain, etc. But when things slow down, it's an entirely different perspective.
I have the malaise of dealing with a single management team who probably would have a difficult time understanding the McDonald's "Order By Number" system, but I certainly can't imagine the frustration of having to deal with the three different management groups each with a potential deleterious affect on YV.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And JT, the only people who are happy at Mesa right now are the newhires. Except the 4 who were furloughed last week. They're like the rest of us ... unhappy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bog I am worried about you. Everything you post lately is negative - "unhappy" - "sucks" - "bad union leadership" - "furloughed." I went through some "bad attitude" times during my airline career, and it sounds like you need to break out of it.
You are forgetting that for every Mesa pilot there are 1000 who are willing to take your job TODAY, for less pay. Airline flying will never be what it was in the "golden days" that people talk about.
I've always considered you a friend and an ALPA brother, but lately you are starting to sound anti-everything. It's not like we didn't know that flying for a regional would not be a great lifestyle. Consider this:
1) You have a job flying airplanes
2) You get paid at a rate which is reasonably competitive in today's cuthroat regional world.
3) You get to work with some pretty great people.
4) You get to fly reasonably new equipment.
5) Your maintenance is no worse than other airlines from what I read and see.
6) Your choice of bases is pretty good for a commuter/regional.
7) Your non-rev privileges are up there with the best in the industry.
UPS is a great place but there will be negative things to deal with there, too. There is no Heaven on this earth.
I do talk to other Mesa pilots. For the most part they seem middlin' happy. Oh they all have their gripes but a lot of it is industry wide stuff. I also talk to guys who left Mesa, and they tell me that the grass is not as green on the other side as they thought it would be. Remember SV? He's over at Comair now and he has some interesting points about Mesa vs. Comair.
I appreciate your point of view on Mesa/airlines/aviation, but please try to show us a little positive once in a while ok?
And JT, the only people who are happy at Mesa right now are the newhires. Except the 4 who were furloughed last week. They're like the rest of us ... unhappy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bog I am worried about you. Everything you post lately is negative - "unhappy" - "sucks" - "bad union leadership" - "furloughed." I went through some "bad attitude" times during my airline career, and it sounds like you need to break out of it.
You are forgetting that for every Mesa pilot there are 1000 who are willing to take your job TODAY, for less pay. Airline flying will never be what it was in the "golden days" that people talk about.
I've always considered you a friend and an ALPA brother, but lately you are starting to sound anti-everything. It's not like we didn't know that flying for a regional would not be a great lifestyle. Consider this:
1) You have a job flying airplanes
2) You get paid at a rate which is reasonably competitive in today's cuthroat regional world.
3) You get to work with some pretty great people.
4) You get to fly reasonably new equipment.
5) Your maintenance is no worse than other airlines from what I read and see.
6) Your choice of bases is pretty good for a commuter/regional.
7) Your non-rev privileges are up there with the best in the industry.
UPS is a great place but there will be negative things to deal with there, too. There is no Heaven on this earth.
I do talk to other Mesa pilots. For the most part they seem middlin' happy. Oh they all have their gripes but a lot of it is industry wide stuff. I also talk to guys who left Mesa, and they tell me that the grass is not as green on the other side as they thought it would be. Remember SV? He's over at Comair now and he has some interesting points about Mesa vs. Comair.
I appreciate your point of view on Mesa/airlines/aviation, but please try to show us a little positive once in a while ok?
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: No offense to the pilots at DCA or MAPD, it's not directed at the pilots personally.
[ QUOTE ]
You are forgetting that for every Mesa pilot there are 1000 who are willing to take your job TODAY, for less pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep....1000 brainwashed MAPD grads. Supplied by whom? MESA. That is the problem. DCA and MAPD are supplying a "cheap" and naive workforce against the pilots already in the system. They are controlling both the supply AND demand side of the equation.
JT you sound like a management rep (sorry). Trying to sell the upside and saying that others are willing to do his job for less is a threat, plain and simple. It's a typical management scare tactic. Rationalizing that "THIS job isn't as bad a THAT company" is a poor defense.
Remember this one? You get what you pay for.
If they paid what pilots are worth and not what they can get away with, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As I said in a previous post. The reason minimums have fallen to what they are is because high time applicants would tell (or have told) MESA HR where to put that CRJ. While a 300hr CFI would wet their pants to fly a CRJ for 18K.
I know several pilots at MESA in the ERJ and CRJ ....none are happy and all want out asap.
[ QUOTE ]
You are forgetting that for every Mesa pilot there are 1000 who are willing to take your job TODAY, for less pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep....1000 brainwashed MAPD grads. Supplied by whom? MESA. That is the problem. DCA and MAPD are supplying a "cheap" and naive workforce against the pilots already in the system. They are controlling both the supply AND demand side of the equation.
JT you sound like a management rep (sorry). Trying to sell the upside and saying that others are willing to do his job for less is a threat, plain and simple. It's a typical management scare tactic. Rationalizing that "THIS job isn't as bad a THAT company" is a poor defense.
Remember this one? You get what you pay for.
If they paid what pilots are worth and not what they can get away with, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As I said in a previous post. The reason minimums have fallen to what they are is because high time applicants would tell (or have told) MESA HR where to put that CRJ. While a 300hr CFI would wet their pants to fly a CRJ for 18K.
I know several pilots at MESA in the ERJ and CRJ ....none are happy and all want out asap.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate your point of view on Mesa/airlines/aviation, but please try to show us a little positive once in a while ok?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, JT telling someone to be positive instead of showing the bleak side of aviation? Hell has frozen over.
Sorry, man. Had to say it.
[ QUOTE ]
Yep....1000 brainwashed MAPD grads. Supplied by whom? MESA. That is the problem. DCA and MAPD are supplying a "cheap" and naive workforce against the pilots already in the system. They are controlling both the supply AND demand side of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what about the CFIs, freight dogs, traffic watch, and banner tow pilots that apply to Mesa daily? They're not brain washed. I'm also pretty sure Mesa does little to control the training programs at MAPD. It's beneath JO since he's too busy playing easy rider on his motorcycle. Besides, if the MAPD well dries up, there's still tons of other apps on the desk. Same with DCA. I doubt Delta gives a rats @ss how they run their operation. Mesa and Delta Connection have more or less sold their name for interview rights to keep the flow moving. If the two schools were to go out of business tomorrow, I doubt any of the regionals would have a shortage of applications.
I appreciate your point of view on Mesa/airlines/aviation, but please try to show us a little positive once in a while ok?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, JT telling someone to be positive instead of showing the bleak side of aviation? Hell has frozen over.
[ QUOTE ]
Yep....1000 brainwashed MAPD grads. Supplied by whom? MESA. That is the problem. DCA and MAPD are supplying a "cheap" and naive workforce against the pilots already in the system. They are controlling both the supply AND demand side of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what about the CFIs, freight dogs, traffic watch, and banner tow pilots that apply to Mesa daily? They're not brain washed. I'm also pretty sure Mesa does little to control the training programs at MAPD. It's beneath JO since he's too busy playing easy rider on his motorcycle. Besides, if the MAPD well dries up, there's still tons of other apps on the desk. Same with DCA. I doubt Delta gives a rats @ss how they run their operation. Mesa and Delta Connection have more or less sold their name for interview rights to keep the flow moving. If the two schools were to go out of business tomorrow, I doubt any of the regionals would have a shortage of applications.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So what about the CFIs, freight dogs, traffic watch, and banner tow pilots that apply to Mesa daily?
[/ QUOTE ]With all due respect to those pilots (I was two of them myself)....yes them too.
[ QUOTE ]
They're not brain washed.
[/ QUOTE ]If they think that the low pay for conditions is fair, then yes they are.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also pretty sure Mesa does little to control the training programs at MAPD....It's beneath JO...
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you, but those schools were begun with one purpose in mind. To provide a pilot base for the regional side (Specifically when outside hiring has dried up). Training those pilots with the same SOPs lowers the training time and cost when they go to indoc and sim training.
[ QUOTE ]
I doubt any of the regionals would have a shortage of applications.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, they have already had a shortage of "qualified" applicants. The proof is in the minimums. The minimums keep getting lowered BECAUSE THEY HAD TO, TO FILL CLASSES.
Question: Why do you think they need to hire <900 hour pilots with so many furloughed 10,000 hour pilots out of work?
Don't you think the HR departments would "prefer" the experienced pilots?
So what about the CFIs, freight dogs, traffic watch, and banner tow pilots that apply to Mesa daily?
[/ QUOTE ]With all due respect to those pilots (I was two of them myself)....yes them too.
[ QUOTE ]
They're not brain washed.
[/ QUOTE ]If they think that the low pay for conditions is fair, then yes they are.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also pretty sure Mesa does little to control the training programs at MAPD....It's beneath JO...
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you, but those schools were begun with one purpose in mind. To provide a pilot base for the regional side (Specifically when outside hiring has dried up). Training those pilots with the same SOPs lowers the training time and cost when they go to indoc and sim training.
[ QUOTE ]
I doubt any of the regionals would have a shortage of applications.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, they have already had a shortage of "qualified" applicants. The proof is in the minimums. The minimums keep getting lowered BECAUSE THEY HAD TO, TO FILL CLASSES.
Question: Why do you think they need to hire <900 hour pilots with so many furloughed 10,000 hour pilots out of work?
Don't you think the HR departments would "prefer" the experienced pilots?
montanapilot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Same with DCA. I doubt Delta gives a rats @ss how they run their operation
[/ QUOTE ]
What????? you mean "Being Owned by Delta Means Everything" isnt true???
Same with DCA. I doubt Delta gives a rats @ss how they run their operation
[/ QUOTE ]
What????? you mean "Being Owned by Delta Means Everything" isnt true???
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
NJA Capt - you'd make me laugh if your post wasn't so sad.
hey I could have griped and whined through 5 years at Mesa if I wanted to - there is ALWAYS something to complain about - anywhere?
I chose not to. Good times were good times. Bad times turned in to good times ... and I usually moved up the seniority list quite a bit during bad times.
It's a question of perspective.
There was no other place I'd have made CRJ captain in less than 4 years.
hey I could have griped and whined through 5 years at Mesa if I wanted to - there is ALWAYS something to complain about - anywhere?
I chose not to. Good times were good times. Bad times turned in to good times ... and I usually moved up the seniority list quite a bit during bad times.
It's a question of perspective.
There was no other place I'd have made CRJ captain in less than 4 years.
Bog
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bog I am worried about you. Everything you post lately is negative - "unhappy" - "sucks" - "bad union leadership" - "furloughed." I went through some "bad attitude" times during my airline career, and it sounds like you need to break out of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And JT, I'll reiterate again ... YOU DON'T WORK HERE ANYMORE. You did not survive the Freedumb Fiasco. You do not have to endure a weak union leadership on a daily basis. Crew Tracking is as bad, if not worse, than it's ever been. The company has added tons of RJs and has never caught up on training and filling vacancies. Senior Management is STILL more concerned with their retirement packages than paying first-year employees enough money to keep them off of food stamps.
You are not here and have not been here to deal with the daily bullshet dumped upon us by just about every other regional out there. The nasty looks, the childish glares. Sure, come back and deal with the uneducated, narrow-minded masses blaming you for their woes.
Hey, I may not be as happy-go-lucky as some posters on this board, but I feel it is my responsibility to make sure that those who want into this industry know reality, not some "Hey, it's all great! I love flying into ORD and being delayed 5 hours without pay!" B.S. However, I teach every newbie here to think for themselves, teach them all how to have fun once the cockpit door has been closed, and try to ensure that no matter how phuked up the company is, we have fun on overnights.
I deal in reality, John. I work for Mesa. I've been here over 5 years now. I've seen the downhill slide and don't like it. I'm trying to do what I can to fix it, and to prepare those trying to get in with a lil dose. If that's too much for you, then I can't help you.
/rant
Bog I am worried about you. Everything you post lately is negative - "unhappy" - "sucks" - "bad union leadership" - "furloughed." I went through some "bad attitude" times during my airline career, and it sounds like you need to break out of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And JT, I'll reiterate again ... YOU DON'T WORK HERE ANYMORE. You did not survive the Freedumb Fiasco. You do not have to endure a weak union leadership on a daily basis. Crew Tracking is as bad, if not worse, than it's ever been. The company has added tons of RJs and has never caught up on training and filling vacancies. Senior Management is STILL more concerned with their retirement packages than paying first-year employees enough money to keep them off of food stamps.
You are not here and have not been here to deal with the daily bullshet dumped upon us by just about every other regional out there. The nasty looks, the childish glares. Sure, come back and deal with the uneducated, narrow-minded masses blaming you for their woes.
Hey, I may not be as happy-go-lucky as some posters on this board, but I feel it is my responsibility to make sure that those who want into this industry know reality, not some "Hey, it's all great! I love flying into ORD and being delayed 5 hours without pay!" B.S. However, I teach every newbie here to think for themselves, teach them all how to have fun once the cockpit door has been closed, and try to ensure that no matter how phuked up the company is, we have fun on overnights.
I deal in reality, John. I work for Mesa. I've been here over 5 years now. I've seen the downhill slide and don't like it. I'm trying to do what I can to fix it, and to prepare those trying to get in with a lil dose. If that's too much for you, then I can't help you.
/rant
Bog
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bogberto, If you read this...I would like to hear your honest opinion on the low time F/O's at Mesa since i'm sure you get to fly with them personally. Just wondering how you view their skills/abilities and if you feel they are a safety hazard or not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Basically, it's like flight instructing in a 50-, 64-, or 86-seat RJ. I've had some great Captains help me along the way, but I came into MAG with 12 years of flying experience plus 5 years of ramp experience. That helps. Coming in with 350 hours in your logbook ... just doesn't cut it, generally speaking.
Safety issue? Well, only if the shiitake hits the fan while I'm using the lav.
Bogberto, If you read this...I would like to hear your honest opinion on the low time F/O's at Mesa since i'm sure you get to fly with them personally. Just wondering how you view their skills/abilities and if you feel they are a safety hazard or not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Basically, it's like flight instructing in a 50-, 64-, or 86-seat RJ. I've had some great Captains help me along the way, but I came into MAG with 12 years of flying experience plus 5 years of ramp experience. That helps. Coming in with 350 hours in your logbook ... just doesn't cut it, generally speaking.
Safety issue? Well, only if the shiitake hits the fan while I'm using the lav.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
[ QUOTE ]
If they think that the low pay for conditions is fair, then yes they are.
[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, they're brain washed by most regional carriers. Think the pay/conditions are much better at XJT, Pinnacle, Mesaba, etc?
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Why do you think they need to hire <900 hour pilots with so many furloughed 10,000 hour pilots out of work?
Don't you think the HR departments would "prefer" the experienced pilots?
[/ QUOTE ]
Frankly, no. Obviously these guys are slumming it in the regionals until they're recalled, right? Why would HR spend the money to train these guys, then have them say "see ya" when they're recall comes in, essentially putting them in the same staffing situation as before just out a couple thousand dollars more. And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization. Hell, some are probably bitter as hell that he's having to start over as a $20/hr FO under some 25 year old captain. I'm sure THAT makes for good CRM. It's easy to say "Mesa and all regional airlines suck," but the truth is none of us know what goes on in HR's ivory towers.
If they think that the low pay for conditions is fair, then yes they are.
[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, they're brain washed by most regional carriers. Think the pay/conditions are much better at XJT, Pinnacle, Mesaba, etc?
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Why do you think they need to hire <900 hour pilots with so many furloughed 10,000 hour pilots out of work?
Don't you think the HR departments would "prefer" the experienced pilots?
[/ QUOTE ]
Frankly, no. Obviously these guys are slumming it in the regionals until they're recalled, right? Why would HR spend the money to train these guys, then have them say "see ya" when they're recall comes in, essentially putting them in the same staffing situation as before just out a couple thousand dollars more. And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization. Hell, some are probably bitter as hell that he's having to start over as a $20/hr FO under some 25 year old captain. I'm sure THAT makes for good CRM. It's easy to say "Mesa and all regional airlines suck," but the truth is none of us know what goes on in HR's ivory towers.
[ QUOTE ]
NJA Capt - you'd make me laugh if your post wasn't so sad.
hey I could have griped and whined through 5 years at Mesa if I wanted to - there is ALWAYS something to complain about - anywhere?
I chose not to. Good times were good times. Bad times turned in to good times ... and I usually moved up the seniority list quite a bit during bad times.
It's a question of perspective.
There was no other place I'd have made CRJ captain in less than 4 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to take issue. Is faster upgrades for crappier pay and QOL supposed to be a GOOD thing (at ALL regionals....before everyone jumps on the "MikeD is bashing poor little innocent Mesa and it's honest-beyond-reproach management only" bandwagon)?
Are you kidding me?
I believe not, for any of the regionals. I believe that a professional pilot should be paid a reasonable wage. I could care less if working at Mesa or any of the other regionals was peachy and happy, a professional pilot still should be compensated a fair wage. Unlike the bright eyed/bushy tailed just-got-my-three-stripes-and-my-white-pilot-shirt newbies out there, I won't sell out fair compensation for potential faster upgrades......that's NOT the precedent I'd want to set, unlike some.
If everyone (managment as well as the pilots) keeps treating the regionals as a stepping stone-type job with the "don't worry about the beans pay, it'll get better later" train of thought, pretty soon, EVERY flying job will follow this model....since what's the difference between a regional pilot flying 90 pax and a major pilot flying 150? In reality, nothing....so far as the CEO is concerned. Both crews fly a tube with engines full of fare-paying pax from point A to point B......they do the same thing. So why am I paying these guys at Delta flying 737s and MD-80s SO much more than their regional brethern?
THAT's the question that's going to start getting asked by upper management at the majors. And it's going to get asked as a direct result of those that sold out pay and QOL for "the fastest upgrade to CRJ captain in less than 4 years." And soon, the majors won't be any different from the regionals.
And that will be the fault of ALL the regionals, as well as their particular pilots that subscribe to the give-pay-for-quick-upgrade theory.
NJA Capt - you'd make me laugh if your post wasn't so sad.
hey I could have griped and whined through 5 years at Mesa if I wanted to - there is ALWAYS something to complain about - anywhere?
I chose not to. Good times were good times. Bad times turned in to good times ... and I usually moved up the seniority list quite a bit during bad times.
It's a question of perspective.
There was no other place I'd have made CRJ captain in less than 4 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to take issue. Is faster upgrades for crappier pay and QOL supposed to be a GOOD thing (at ALL regionals....before everyone jumps on the "MikeD is bashing poor little innocent Mesa and it's honest-beyond-reproach management only" bandwagon)?
Are you kidding me?
I believe not, for any of the regionals. I believe that a professional pilot should be paid a reasonable wage. I could care less if working at Mesa or any of the other regionals was peachy and happy, a professional pilot still should be compensated a fair wage. Unlike the bright eyed/bushy tailed just-got-my-three-stripes-and-my-white-pilot-shirt newbies out there, I won't sell out fair compensation for potential faster upgrades......that's NOT the precedent I'd want to set, unlike some.
If everyone (managment as well as the pilots) keeps treating the regionals as a stepping stone-type job with the "don't worry about the beans pay, it'll get better later" train of thought, pretty soon, EVERY flying job will follow this model....since what's the difference between a regional pilot flying 90 pax and a major pilot flying 150? In reality, nothing....so far as the CEO is concerned. Both crews fly a tube with engines full of fare-paying pax from point A to point B......they do the same thing. So why am I paying these guys at Delta flying 737s and MD-80s SO much more than their regional brethern?
THAT's the question that's going to start getting asked by upper management at the majors. And it's going to get asked as a direct result of those that sold out pay and QOL for "the fastest upgrade to CRJ captain in less than 4 years." And soon, the majors won't be any different from the regionals.
And that will be the fault of ALL the regionals, as well as their particular pilots that subscribe to the give-pay-for-quick-upgrade theory.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Think the pay/conditions are much better at XJT, Pinnacle, Mesaba, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said ANY of them were better.
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously these guys are slumming it in the regionals until they're recalled, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would HR spend the money to train these guys, then have them say "see ya" when they're recall comes in...
[/ QUOTE ]Wrong again. Good try at dodging though.
I'm talking about the the guys that HAVE NO RECALL RIGHTS. The name Midway and TWA, (15 yrs of USAir pilots) etc ring a bell? If the regionals are so grand, wouldn't these guys rather enjoy their "love of aviation" rather than Home Depot for the same wage?
[ QUOTE ]
And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, your right. 10,000 hours of 121 time can't hold a candle to a 500 hour academy grad.
[ QUOTE ]
...some are probably bitter as hell that he's having to start over as a $20/hr FO under some 25 year old captain. I'm sure THAT makes for good CRM.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit north of 25, but I have flown with furloughees and retirees from all the majors here at NetJets (as well as many from Midway and Comair). Many of these guys are twice my age and have more time over the Atlantic/Pacific than I have care to think about. They make as much now per year as they used to make per MONTH. All have been SUPER to fly with. Insubordinate? NEVER. Chip on their shoulder? No. Did they care that I was "the young kid" in the left seat? Of course not.
Yes, I know there are some bitter guys out there. Those same guys would complain if they got hired anywhere. But they are FAR from the majority.
Think the pay/conditions are much better at XJT, Pinnacle, Mesaba, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said ANY of them were better.
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously these guys are slumming it in the regionals until they're recalled, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would HR spend the money to train these guys, then have them say "see ya" when they're recall comes in...
[/ QUOTE ]Wrong again. Good try at dodging though.
I'm talking about the the guys that HAVE NO RECALL RIGHTS. The name Midway and TWA, (15 yrs of USAir pilots) etc ring a bell? If the regionals are so grand, wouldn't these guys rather enjoy their "love of aviation" rather than Home Depot for the same wage?
[ QUOTE ]
And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, your right. 10,000 hours of 121 time can't hold a candle to a 500 hour academy grad.
[ QUOTE ]
...some are probably bitter as hell that he's having to start over as a $20/hr FO under some 25 year old captain. I'm sure THAT makes for good CRM.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit north of 25, but I have flown with furloughees and retirees from all the majors here at NetJets (as well as many from Midway and Comair). Many of these guys are twice my age and have more time over the Atlantic/Pacific than I have care to think about. They make as much now per year as they used to make per MONTH. All have been SUPER to fly with. Insubordinate? NEVER. Chip on their shoulder? No. Did they care that I was "the young kid" in the left seat? Of course not.
Yes, I know there are some bitter guys out there. Those same guys would complain if they got hired anywhere. But they are FAR from the majority.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Mesa sucks no more than other similar airlines.
Bog I read your post most carefully. Except for the reference to Freedom Airlines nothing you mentioned is new. All of that was going on while I was at Mesa.
I had flights cancelled without pay. Many times, I drove 2 1/2 hours to sit at PBI to see my whole shift cancelled, and you guessed it - no money. I dealt with stupid Crew Trackers - remember Debbie M? and The Queen B of Air Midwest? I had to fight Kathy No-check-o every two weeks to get my pay correct. At one time (during my supposed transfer to Air Middie, which didn't happen at that time) they actually skipped paying me for a month. I had to Jens to fix it of all people! I have many many many other stories of ineptitude and general incompetence.
The rest, well it looks like nothing has really changed at all at Mesa, that isn't industry wide.
Don't get too down on it, really. And this is not a "pro-management pep talk." From the posts of others on this board, it sounds like all the airlines suck right now, and I'm glad I got out when I did - even if it was not by choice...
You see, NJA Capt, I am one of those Midway guys you are talking about - now THAT was an airline that sucked. It was worse than Eagle for being Pilot Hostile. Imagine having to "check in" 4 hours before a 6am show, and lose the trip (and the money) if you don't. Imagine having to get Crew Scheduling's permission to go home, even though your shift is done. And they knew where you lived, so they wouldn't release you until the last flight left for home ON PURPOSE. Imagine flying with a complete • that 26 other FOs put on their "no pair" list, has been reported to the Chief Pilot over 20 times, and yet this guy still manages to pass 6 month check rides, totally beyond comprehension to the informed pilot since he can't fly his way out of a paper bag. Yes - it happened. All of it.
Bog I read your post most carefully. Except for the reference to Freedom Airlines nothing you mentioned is new. All of that was going on while I was at Mesa.
I had flights cancelled without pay. Many times, I drove 2 1/2 hours to sit at PBI to see my whole shift cancelled, and you guessed it - no money. I dealt with stupid Crew Trackers - remember Debbie M? and The Queen B of Air Midwest? I had to fight Kathy No-check-o every two weeks to get my pay correct. At one time (during my supposed transfer to Air Middie, which didn't happen at that time) they actually skipped paying me for a month. I had to Jens to fix it of all people! I have many many many other stories of ineptitude and general incompetence.
The rest, well it looks like nothing has really changed at all at Mesa, that isn't industry wide.
Don't get too down on it, really. And this is not a "pro-management pep talk." From the posts of others on this board, it sounds like all the airlines suck right now, and I'm glad I got out when I did - even if it was not by choice...
You see, NJA Capt, I am one of those Midway guys you are talking about - now THAT was an airline that sucked. It was worse than Eagle for being Pilot Hostile. Imagine having to "check in" 4 hours before a 6am show, and lose the trip (and the money) if you don't. Imagine having to get Crew Scheduling's permission to go home, even though your shift is done. And they knew where you lived, so they wouldn't release you until the last flight left for home ON PURPOSE. Imagine flying with a complete • that 26 other FOs put on their "no pair" list, has been reported to the Chief Pilot over 20 times, and yet this guy still manages to pass 6 month check rides, totally beyond comprehension to the informed pilot since he can't fly his way out of a paper bag. Yes - it happened. All of it.
Bog
New Member
Re: Mesa sucks no more than other similar airlines.
[ QUOTE ]
Bog I read your post most carefully. Except for the reference to Freedom Airlines nothing you mentioned is new. All of that was going on while I was at Mesa.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, as I've mentioned before, it's the post-Freedom days that really suck. Many senior pilots said that morale around YV was WORSE during and after the F8 shaft than it was when UA pulled the plug a few years ago. For the 20th time, you're not working here now. It IS different from when you were here. Management tries even harder than ever to screw us out of every last dime so they can get the stock to go up $.00006. The only employee-management relations we have are beyond poor.
[ QUOTE ]
Bog I read your post most carefully. Except for the reference to Freedom Airlines nothing you mentioned is new. All of that was going on while I was at Mesa.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, as I've mentioned before, it's the post-Freedom days that really suck. Many senior pilots said that morale around YV was WORSE during and after the F8 shaft than it was when UA pulled the plug a few years ago. For the 20th time, you're not working here now. It IS different from when you were here. Management tries even harder than ever to screw us out of every last dime so they can get the stock to go up $.00006. The only employee-management relations we have are beyond poor.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Re: Mesa sucks no more than other similar airlines.
I don't know why you keep saying I don't work there anymore like it matters. I still talk to about 50 or so Mesa piots, and say 50 or so ex-Mesa pilots fairly often. I can still tell you what I've said all along. Mesa WAS (key word WAS) better to me than Eagle or Midway.
I'll tell you one airline that seems to treat it's pilots pretty well - AirTran. I haven't met an unhappy Airtran pilot in a long time.
Oh yeah, it was the Yellow Tail Midway - out of RDU.
I don't know why you keep saying I don't work there anymore like it matters. I still talk to about 50 or so Mesa piots, and say 50 or so ex-Mesa pilots fairly often. I can still tell you what I've said all along. Mesa WAS (key word WAS) better to me than Eagle or Midway.
I'll tell you one airline that seems to treat it's pilots pretty well - AirTran. I haven't met an unhappy Airtran pilot in a long time.
Oh yeah, it was the Yellow Tail Midway - out of RDU.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
[ QUOTE ]
And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization.
Yea, your right. 10,000 hours of 121 time can't hold a candle to a 500 hour academy grad.
[/ QUOTE ]
Point missed entirely. My point was you can have all thr hours in the world, but if you interview poorly, go in with a chip on your shoulder, or act like you deserve the job, then you probably won't get it. Just because a pilot has 10,000 hours isn't a job guarantee. I think too many people focus on quantity of hours.
I'm glad to hear that there are good guys out there to fly with that are furloughed. I wasn't saying ALL of them were bitter and jaded, just a lot of the ones I've come into contact with. Some of them got out of aviation altogether because it wasn't what they thought it would be. Can't really blame them for that, either.
And just b/c a pilot has 10,000 hours doesn't mean he's a good fit for the organization.
Yea, your right. 10,000 hours of 121 time can't hold a candle to a 500 hour academy grad.
[/ QUOTE ]
Point missed entirely. My point was you can have all thr hours in the world, but if you interview poorly, go in with a chip on your shoulder, or act like you deserve the job, then you probably won't get it. Just because a pilot has 10,000 hours isn't a job guarantee. I think too many people focus on quantity of hours.
I'm glad to hear that there are good guys out there to fly with that are furloughed. I wasn't saying ALL of them were bitter and jaded, just a lot of the ones I've come into contact with. Some of them got out of aviation altogether because it wasn't what they thought it would be. Can't really blame them for that, either.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My point was you can have all thr hours in the world, but if you interview poorly, go in with a chip on your shoulder, or act like you deserve the job, then you probably won't get it.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree. The opposite is also true, even to a larger degree. The last 4 years or so have seen a lot of "young bucks" hit the scene with the I deserve it attitude, and the first words out of their mouths are "How soon til I upgrade?" This will get a door slammed on you in a hurry. The "high timers" have been around long enough to know when to keep their mouth shut in an interview.
Your theory is based on the interview itself. Before you can interview you have to have applicants. My basis was that the high time furloughed/defunct pilots are not applying in the first place, therefore the regionals have lowered their minimums to "broaden the pool."
If this were not true, and there were enough qualified applicants you would see the required items like:
ATP rating....not written
BA degree...not High School equivalent
3000tt not <900
Currently it reads more like: Heartbeat + survive training=job
I would also say that some of the interviewers are also intimidated by applicants with more experience than them.
My point was you can have all thr hours in the world, but if you interview poorly, go in with a chip on your shoulder, or act like you deserve the job, then you probably won't get it.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree. The opposite is also true, even to a larger degree. The last 4 years or so have seen a lot of "young bucks" hit the scene with the I deserve it attitude, and the first words out of their mouths are "How soon til I upgrade?" This will get a door slammed on you in a hurry. The "high timers" have been around long enough to know when to keep their mouth shut in an interview.
Your theory is based on the interview itself. Before you can interview you have to have applicants. My basis was that the high time furloughed/defunct pilots are not applying in the first place, therefore the regionals have lowered their minimums to "broaden the pool."
If this were not true, and there were enough qualified applicants you would see the required items like:
ATP rating....not written
BA degree...not High School equivalent
3000tt not <900
Currently it reads more like: Heartbeat + survive training=job
I would also say that some of the interviewers are also intimidated by applicants with more experience than them.