Another knee jerk reaction to the Colgan crash

[jtrain609]

A sample size of one is nowhere near a trend.

The sample size is much larger than one, and it's a trend civilian guys have been watching for a couple of years now.

If you have busts, you don't get a job. That will change eventually I think, but it's the climate we live in right now.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Its like saying that since I failed my driving test once back when I was 16, that I can never get a job that involves driving anything.

I have no idea if failing a driving test gets reported, but I've had 3 different jobs that involve driving since.

 

[OldTownPilot]

I think something else you might see is a reduction in the number of people taking CFI checkrides, for fear of going to a FSDO, and flunking a ride that isn't necessary for flying 121.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Totally man. I was trying to make the point that just the detent would have been enough and they unfortunately never got there. I know the specifics...I was on the team.

I was just "adding" that for everybody else who isn't familial with the Q400 systems, not trying to send it to you

I don't think a large portion of the guys reading this would have any idea that there was "overtravel" in that the Q has a rating detent where the Fadec gives you performance calculated power, and then the over ride that gives you everything the engine can make.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Guys, the way interviews go, you already are asked," Have you ever failed, busted, unsat" a check ride. If you say no because it's not on your record, then you have a much bigger problem. If I am responsible for hiring, and I give you a job after you tell me that you never busted a ride great. The Faa check come back clean, great. Then I get your training records from a previous employer, and find a busted ride. You are, without a doubt, fired on the spot. Security will take you from the training center. If you are on the line flying, the rcp and a police officer will meet you at the plane. I will report it to the FAA, and your career is definitely much worse off than if you reported it.

presenting fraudulent information at an interview is not something they take lightly.

No joke, people that lied on their application at colgan about ANYTHING after 3407.. gone. People with 2 failed rides still get interviews... the reality is, you have to fess up... having it out there for potential employers to see is part of it now, because Pilots won't self disclose this stuff.

Even if you get popped for some stupid reason thats not your fault, you still busted, you still have to disclose it. Hiding it because you thought it was crap is exactly what led to this rule, pria, etc.

This bill "shouldn't" change anything for anybody.

 

[granlistillo]

I think we're talking past each other. They were at flaps 15.

I woke up early for an afternoon show and was sleep posting. I really don't know, and I regret venturing an opinion. The crew has passed on. I do think that as a crew they collectively failed, but that is obvious. I think in the end, the boogie man comes out at night when you are fatigued, and it happens way too often the way this world works.

 

[Gonzo]

Guys, the way interviews go, you already are asked," Have you ever failed, busted, unsat" a check ride. If you say no because it's not on your record, then you have a much bigger problem. If I am responsible for hiring, and I give you a job after you tell me that you never busted a ride great. The Faa check come back clean, great. Then I get your training records from a previous employer, and find a busted ride. You are, without a doubt, fired on the spot. Security will take you from the training center. If you are on the line flying, the rcp and a police officer will meet you at the plane. I will report it to the FAA, and your career is definitely much worse off than if you reported it.

presenting fraudulent information at an interview is not something they take lightly.

No joke, people that lied on their application at colgan about ANYTHING after 3407.. gone. People with 2 failed rides still get interviews... the reality is, you have to fess up... having it out there for potential employers to see is part of it now, because Pilots won't self disclose this stuff.

Even if you get popped for some stupid reason thats not your fault, you still busted, you still have to disclose it. Hiding it because you thought it was crap is exactly what led to this rule, pria, etc.

This bill "shouldn't" change anything for anybody.

The problem is there are some airlines that have a one bust only rule, and why is two busts ok at Colgan but not three? Three out of five could be a red flag or it could be a bad 61 DPE. How about someone that has taken 15 rides and has 3 busts? Even with this, there is no way to tell if someone who did their flight training underpart 141 busted any rides. For all the airlines know a 141 guys might have busted all his rides two times.

 

[at1024]

But airlines are currently not hiring based on one factor(busted checkrides).

So you're saying that because I busted my CFI initial I can't apply for a regional FO job making $22k/year???

I am absolutely heartbroken...I'm gonna cry myself to sleep tonight!

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I'm not saying the "number of busts" limit isn't the problem... just that this proposed rule isn't the problem.

 

[Gonzo]

I'm not saying the "number of busts" limit isn't the problem... just that this proposed rule isn't the problem.

The problem is in the past the airlines had a see no evil, hear no evil attitude, and I think that was to a point the right attitude. As pilots we are not as perfect as the public thinks we are, the airlines know it and we know it. Now somebody's career is going to end before it starts (Mess up on a solo and goodbye career).

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

The problem is there are some airlines that have a one bust only rule, and why is two busts ok at Colgan but not three? Three out of five could be a red flag or it could be a bad 61 DPE. How about someone that has taken 15 rides and has 3 busts? Even with this, there is no way to tell if someone who did their flight training underpart 141 busted any rides. For all the airlines know a 141 guys might have busted all his rides two times.

AC 120-68E
1-7 Best Practices

d.
Related Records. The FAA expects all hiring air carriers and air operators to request all pilot training records from 14 CFR part 141 pilots schools and 14 CFR part 142 training centers.

As of Jul 2nd 2010, All carriers that I know of will request full training Records. If you busted stages checks it will show up.

Seriously, as part of the 3407 aftermath, PRIA is the real deal. If you failed a checking event they will find out.

 

[Gonzo]

AC 120-68E
1-7 Best Practices

d.
Related Records. The FAA expects all hiring air carriers and air operators to request all pilot training records from 14 CFR part 141 pilots schools and 14 CFR part 142 training centers.

As of Jul 2nd 2010, All carriers that I know of will request full training Records. If you busted stages checks it will show up.

Seriously, as part of the 3407 aftermath, PRIA is the real deal. If you failed a checking event they will find out.

I have never gone to a part 141 flight school so I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that a busted stage checks just looks like a lesson on part 141 training records.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I never had a hard time determining where one stage ended and one started in a 141 training record. Repeat of the last event, followed by a log book reviews will reveal the results 99% of the time. Most records follow a syllabus, and come with a job aid... if it's been filled out, it's part of the records, and can be furnished.

EOC still requires an 8710, even if the school has self examining authority. Not only that, but each part of each lesson is graded in a 141 system.. so you can really start to track an applicants progress/ problems areas.

 

[C150J]

I never had a hard time determining where one stage ended and one started in a 141 training record. Repeat of the last event, followed by a log book reviews will reveal the results 99% of the time. Most records follow a syllabus, and come with a job aid... if it's been filled out, it's part of the records, and can be furnished.

EOC still requires an 8710, even if the school has self examining authority. Not only that, but each part of each lesson is graded in a 141 system.. so you can really start to track an applicants progress/ problems areas.

None of which, right now, is included on an 8060 request (which is what the new database is supposedly modeled after). Until the FAA requires this information to be reported, those who attended such 141 schools will be at an advantage over the applicant who filled out an 8710 for every event. You mentioned a logbook audit. I don't know one pilot who would down a guy for a busted ride, or at least look into unsats for surrounding information. That's not the issue I've already seen: it's getting to the point where a pilot on an interview board would even be investigating such things. By having quick access to such information (whether by a pilot's own admission or this database), some people will never get a chance to explain themselves.

Yes, such is life. However, I think there's a lot more work to be done before this database can meet its potential.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Colgan is facing litigation, one of the key elements was the non-disclosed failures. They will/ Do request full training records as they are supposed to.

I don't know a single pilot that wouldn't Audit a log book if he/she thought that the applicant wasn't being straight with them, that pointless though, as PRIA happens after the interview. When your pria comes back if HR thinks something is wrong, they will audit the logbook if needed, or verify with the flight school.

I don't know about other carriers, but, at Colgan your records WILL be reviewed. Training has actually had issues with large numbers of applicants washing out of training for Failure to Disclose. When the send your PRIA authorization to UND, ERAU, FSU etc, they request full training records, and thats what you have released by signing it.

Yes, you might get by an interview without disclosing something after 5 years, but the risk isn't worth it. Termination for failure to disclose will show up on your next PRIA, and guess what... that one is a deal breaker.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

And that's what's ultimately frustrating. The common errors leading to busts on primary check rides don't necessarily correlate to pilot deviations, incidents, and accidents. For the commercial check ride, a LOFT scenario involving diversions, fuel constraints, and instrument procedures would have much higher content validity than a lazy eight. Also, for the ATP written, I'd much rather see questions concerning readback/hearback errors than how to load a 727.

Also, had Gonzo gone to a Part 141 school with self-examining authority, he would have one reportable failed check ride at most. He could've hooked every ride once, paid up, and graduated the program with NO reportable failures. Blows my mind. For those of you who attended such programs, I'm aware that some are much better than others, so please don't take that statement as a jab. I'm first to admit that part 61 has its flaws too (e.g., having an uncle as your DPE from private through ATP).

I'm done venting, I promise.

No, please, vent more, it's healthy, and maybe we can fix all the industry's problems before bedtime.

Lazy eights are still cool, though, and you should be REQUIRED to demonstrate such positive, precise and coordinated aircraft control on a regular basis. That's the point of the maneuver. Ditto for chandelles. Hope you never need to make one, but it's nice to know, and the idea is to demonstrate that same sort of authoritative handling of the airplane. Airmanship. It's not dead. (Well, the need for it isn't dead, although some would argue that it went away with the PTS and 172.)

A superior pilot uses superior judgment to avoid using superior skill. In other words, use your superior judgment to avoid using your superior skills...but you'd better have those superior skills around for when the judgment runs out or is exceeded.

There are two kinds of pilots: those who have busted a checkride, and those who are fixing to. I'm in the latter category...for now. Mistakes happen, and one of these days it'll happen during a training event/checkride.

I don't know about other carriers, but, at Colgan your records WILL be reviewed. Training has actually had issues with large numbers of applicants washing out of training for Failure to Disclose. When the send your PRIA authorization to UND, ERAU, FSU etc, they request full training records, and thats what you have released by signing it.

I have a few friends at Anonymous Regional Airlines, Inc. that indicate about 10% of the training classes wash out in the second or third week because of various non-disclosure/pencil whipping/whatever issues. :insane: