AMR Seeks Pilot Concessions........Again

Gonzo said:
You also can't piss off the public you are trying to get behind you.
Click to expand...

How would stating facts about the people actually operating the machines piss off the public? Do you think, in this era of "business is bad" that people wouldn't respond to a message that AMR (or others) have anally raped the pilots and FA's whose job is to keep them safe when they fly? I think it would gain traction.
 
Yeah the Occupy movement seriously needs better control over their people before they can be taken seriously. Otherwise they just look like unemployed cry babies.

If a CEO would be willing to make the same sacrifice as he asks of his employees the concessions would go down better and would actually show the CEO wants the company to succeed for the right reasons.
 
WacoFan said:
How would stating facts about the people actually operating the machines piss off the public? Do you think, in this era of "business is bad" that people wouldn't respond to a message that AMR (or others) have anally raped the pilots and FA's whose job is to keep them safe when they fly? I think it would gain traction.
Click to expand...
Because just about everyone at AA makes more then the median household income. Even me just an FO at Eagle I make more then the median household income. The public as a whole can't understand the jobs we do (And that goes for everyone at the airline not just the pilots). So it is hard for people in the top 10% to get the public behind them.
 
Waco, we've done polling and focus groups on this in the past. The result is always the same: if you do what you're talking about, the public thinks "there go those lazy, overpaid pilots again." The fact is, despite the horrible situation that the AMR pilots are in, they make a ton more money than the average American, and they still will after the bankruptcy is over. People don't tend to sympathize. Safety is about the only thing that the public will pay attention to, which is why we finally got somewhere with pilot licensing requirements and flight time/duty time, but when it comes to compensation, work rules, and benefits, the public doesn't care one bit.

But, let's say your idea could work, and that people would care. Let's say the APA went on a public marketing campaign and made the public mad at AMR, so they started booking elsewhere. What does this accomplish? Bookings go down, and AMR's revenue drops. The company loses even more money. The company cries poor to the bankruptcy judge, and even worse conditions are imposed on the pilots. Sorry, but despite what the anti-union people think, labor doesn't really like to hurt our employers. It only hurts us in the end. Management leaves, because they're nothing but a bunch of opportunistic carpet-baggers, but we're still here, left with the aftermath. The strategy just doesn't work. It's counter-productive, even if you could get the public to care, which is unlikely.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Waco, we've done polling and focus groups on this in the past. The result is always the same: if you do what you're talking about, the public thinks "there go those lazy, overpaid pilots again." The fact is, despite the horrible situation that the AMR pilots are in, they make a ton more money than the average American, and they still will after the bankruptcy is over. People don't tend to sympathize. Safety is about the only thing that the public will pay attention to, which is why we finally got somewhere with pilot licensing requirements and flight time/duty time, but when it comes to compensation, work rules, and benefits, the public doesn't care one bit.

But, let's say your idea could work, and that people would care. Let's say the APA went on a public marketing campaign and made the public mad at AMR, so they started booking elsewhere. What does this accomplish? Bookings go down, and AMR's revenue drops. The company loses even more money. The company cries poor to the bankruptcy judge, and even worse conditions are imposed on the pilots. Sorry, but despite what the anti-union people think, labor doesn't really like to hurt our employers. It only hurts us in the end. Management leaves, because they're nothing but a bunch of opportunistic carpet-baggers, but we're still here, left with the aftermath. The strategy just doesn't work. It's counter-productive, even if you could get the public to care, which is unlikely.
Click to expand...

So maybe ALPA should one up AMR management. Throw together a marketing campaign touting how great AMR is, why people should continue to fly AMR. Pump up revenues and make it more difficult for management to cry poor. Labor should also be able to use the campaign to its advantage in negotiations, saying you are willing to take a stake in the company and its future by promoting how great you are.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
American's pilots aren't ALPA members. They have their own independent union called the APA.
Click to expand...

Ok, same point stands though. APA should take the lead and not let management dictate what customers hear. A positive campaign benefits pilots much more than it does management at this point in time. They get paid regardless, pilots on the other hand could use all the leverage they can get.
 
I don't see how it could help their situation. The bankruptcy judge is still going to do the same thing, because that's his responsibility under the current law. They gain no leverage by spending their dues dollars on such a campaign.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't see how it could help their situation. The bankruptcy judge is still going to do the same thing, because that's his responsibility under the current law. They gain no leverage by spending their dues dollars on such a campaign.
Click to expand...

I don't really understand how a campaign pushing the public away would hurt them if the company could claim even less revenue, but a campaign pulling the public in and increasing revenue would do nothing.
 
I'm not saying it would do nothing, it just wouldn't do enough to stop the inevitable. They are going to take concessions. No way to avoid it. It's unlikely that any positive campaign would bring significant revenue to the carrier, especially since passengers always shy away from booking on bankrupt carriers. There may be a negligible benefit to revenue, but that's it. It wouldn't change the ultimate result of the concessions that they'll have to take. In other words, it would be a waste of dues money.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not saying it would do nothing, it just wouldn't do enough to stop the inevitable. They are going to take concessions. No way to avoid it. It's unlikely that any positive campaign would bring significant revenue to the carrier, especially since passengers always shy away from booking on bankrupt carriers. There may be a negligible benefit to revenue, but that's it. It wouldn't change the ultimate result of the concessions that they'll have to take. In other words, it would be a waste of dues money.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
 
Matt13C said:
I don't really understand how a campaign pushing the public away would hurt them if the company could claim even less revenue, but a campaign pulling the public in and increasing revenue would do nothing.
Click to expand...

The idea isn't a totally bad idea, either way, but the real problem is how revenue is handled by AMR. It doesn't matter how good your public image is, if the company allocates assets in a way that causes the company to lose money, there's not much the rank and file can't really do much about it.

Personally, I think AMR's first shot at the APA was intended to waaaaaay overreach. That way when they back off, they actually look diplomatic. They know they're going to have to give ground, and overstating their needs gives them way more room to maneuver closer to what they really want.

Basically, AMR management thinks their employee base is completely stupid.
 
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. For APA and AMR, it's too late to play the happy family game. If you're in contract negotiations and run an ad like that, management will think all the pilots are happy and not want to give improvements. They'll be over the moon thinking a sub-par contract will pass. That's what we dealt with at 9E for years, not because the union gave that impression, just because our management was out of touch with the pilot group. You want to find the happy middle where the pilots feel they are rewarded for their work and treated fairly and management has the tools they need to turn a profit and grow the business. When business is booming, that middle ground is fairly large. Sadly, with the economy in tatters for most of the past 8-10 years, that middle ground has been about the width of a tight rope.
 
kellwolf said:
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. For APA and AMR, it's too late to play the happy family game. If you're in contract negotiations and run an ad like that, management will think all the pilots are happy and not want to give improvements. They'll be over the moon thinking a sub-par contract will pass. That's what we dealt with at 9E for years, not because the union gave that impression, just because our management was out of touch with the pilot group. You want to find the happy middle where the pilots feel they are rewarded for their work and treated fairly and management has the tools they need to turn a profit and grow the business. When business is booming, that middle ground is fairly large. Sadly, with the economy in tatters for most of the past 8-10 years, that middle ground has been about the width of a tight rope.
Click to expand...

Perhaps... but I'd wager the majority of the APA has been pissed at AMR management for a decade or so. That happy middle ground at AA was obliterated right after the labor groups voluntarily gave concessions and management took huge bonuses.

Ya know what I'd like to see? A management group where bonuses come *only* when actual legitimate profits are made. It's not like their salaries have them living on stale bread and cheap peanut butter as it were.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top