Ameriflight

@Finhunter89 care to weigh in on your training experiences? Congrats by the way!
Hey thanks! You should introduce me to inverted flight! Yea I guess I can donate my 2 cents.

I did the 99 and the metro training for those who don't know and personally I didn't think training was all that hard but i busted my butt studying before and during school. It was very fast paced but if you know your stuff it won't be an issue. The problem comes is when they throw so much at you that you become saturated and can no longer retain what you are being taught. I had that happen in both programs, 99 happened right at my checkride and the metro was after a full week of on line training. This I think is where they run into most of there issues because everyone becomes saturated at a different point in training, but because of the pace of their training it's going to happen. With that being said I can see instructors being frustrated with trainees when they reach that point earlier than planned. That is why it is important to be up to speed on being able to fly the airplane. I think they plan on seeing how long it takes someone to reach that point. I definitely enjoyed metro training a bit more because I was in a class of one and I could have all the personal attention I wanted. I also thought the metro training was very well set up at the time, I have no knowledge of how they are doing it now that they are trying to move everything to DFW. A major downfall I think AMF has is that they are expecting people with minimal real world flying experience to come into school with they systems, flows, calls, and just about everything learned and proficient, then throwing them right into a sim and expecting proficiency from day 1. Not the best model for a training department if you ask me.

I just finished E175 training at SkyWest and the training program was night and day difference. I wasn't expected to know anything prior to class. Systems was two weeks and it very easily could have been shortened to a week. With that extra time we had with systems class we were able to learn flows, callouts, procedures, and everything else you would need moving forward into sims in a very stress free environment. It feels like the instructors here want you to be successful and pass with flying colors and they will do anything they can to help. You feel like you want another sim to practice before the checkride? No problem! I've talked to some of the ground and FTD instructors and they said that if I ever have a question at any point that I can feel free to call them even if its 3 am.

I'm sure I could probably talk about this more but I'm going to bed haha. If anyone has specific questions let me know and I would be more than happy to answer.
 
@GX
The filthy planes argument I can buy. You can't inspect what you can't see and that applies equally with an inspection panel, a door, or the lead buildup from the chieftain exhaust. Also pretty hard to tell if there is a new hydraulic leak if the fluid from the leak 20 years ago is still in the gear well. The paint thing I still don't get, at least your planes are all the same paint scheme and it looks like more or less the paint is still on there.

The last three jobs comment is a reference to something that I'm seeing is a common theme-jumping on a new job and talking on here like it's the next best thing to Delta (I seem to remember a rather emotional reaction when I said something to the effect of "be careful about some of the practices at that Alaska place you're at"), then later realizing that people who gave you a heads up about known issues were in fact right.

I'm honestly not trying to belittle or demean you, just trying to point out something I'm seeing in your career choices that maybe you're having trouble seeing for yourself.
 
I can absolutely understand everyone's inputs here, and where they're coming from. I appreciate that. I'm going to make a few points though, that I think also really need to be understood.

1. Ameriflight has to train captains, not FOs. In an ideal world, there would be plenty of sim and online training, but it's not realistic. This is why the online portion of training is highly emphasized... To give the trainees a greater exposure to making those "PIC" decisions while being supervised by their instructors. At somewhere like Skywest, the FOs continue to learn until their upgrade. Thus, it's an ever evolving process, where only so much can be taught in a classroom. Where do you draw the line?

2. Staffing here is the largest issue: people aren't staying very long because of short staffed bases, meaning more work for our pilots. This short sightedness really annoys me, but overall, that's why even with a lengthened training cycle, we can't get help out their quick enough; thus, we can't spend 4 weeks in the sims with a few students who would benefit more from home study.

3. People seem to think that in coming here Ameriflight owes them something. For example, I have seen countless times where instructors will stay late, or come in on weekends to help out the candidates. They're not doing this to evaluate, they're providing quality instruction: when the candidates don't put in the effort in return, we can't study for them. Every instructor's phone number is given out on day 1 of ground school, in which we tell the candidates to call or text at any time if there's anything we can do to help.

Furthermore, the instructors have ground and cpt training where they walk the students through everything. Afterwards, they assist and critique as necessary, in which the students have the remainder of the week and weekend to continue studying prior to Sims (starting the following week).

4. The yelling and tones... Now here's a great argument that I hear all the time. No instructor is going to be Willy Wonka perky, unless they're a psychopath. They all have other things to deal with in life. I'll give an example I see all too often: you put someone in the sim and the instructor is trying to do their job; they explain the issue to the student, and the student argues. They explain it from a different standpoint, again the student argues. At this point, the student refuses to listen, continues to ignore the instructor and then flies into a mountain because they weren't listening to what they were being told. We all have limits, but when we're not being respected time and time again, our frustrations are made known. It takes a lot to get most of us to that point.... Especially when we're teaching basic IFR skills to people who are CFIIs and other 135 pilots. I check my ego at the door, and I ask everyone to do the same so that it's a good experience for all.

I've heard stories about the Ameriflight inductors who just yelled all the time (in particular, the old PA31 and 99 programs?) I can't speak to that, it was before my time. I came in the end of 2013, and since then I've seen a lot of great things happen throughout all of the training programs, and within the company.

I think it's fantastic that people critique instructors over and over again, but don't accept their own shortcomings. Yes, the ideal applicant has began the studying process prior and is well prepared for class, but it doesn't mean that Ameriflight only has time for them.

I know I (and any other instructor) would have no problem with ground school surveys and assessments. I stand by my instruction, and by the students that I've worked with.

Tell me again, where is the CURRENT problem guys? Change takes time to see the full effect of implementation, and it is occurring.
 
I can absolutely understand everyone's inputs here, and where they're coming from. I appreciate that. I'm going to make a few points though, that I think also really need to be understood.

1. Ameriflight has to train captains, not FOs. In an ideal world, there would be plenty of sim and online training, but it's not realistic. This is why the online portion of training is highly emphasized... To give the trainees a greater exposure to making those "PIC" decisions while being supervised by their instructors. At somewhere like Skywest, the FOs continue to learn until their upgrade. Thus, it's an ever evolving process, where only so much can be taught in a classroom. Where do you draw the line?

Do you know who also trains PICs? EVERYONE. Most regionals give a PIC type, and I have a PIC type in every jet I have flown. SkyWest gives you a PIC type. That is a full type, not a modified "kinda" PIC type to fill a box.

2. Staffing here is the largest issue: people aren't staying very long because of short staffed bases, meaning more work for our pilots. This short sightedness really annoys me, but overall, that's why even with a lengthened training cycle, we can't get help out their quick enough; thus, we can't spend 4 weeks in the sims with a few students who would benefit more from home study.

This isn't an answer to the correct question. You need to be addressing the washout rate, not the people leaving, as an issue regarding training. People will leave Ameriflight for a multitude of reasons. Ameriflight complaining about staffing is no different than the regionals complaining about staffing. While the regionals may be more pay driven, but AMF can't complain about staffing and send 50% of the people out the door. Nobody is saying spend 4 weeks in the sim, however AMF is a stepping stone job, you know it, I know it, the world knows it, AMF knows it. Hell AMF built their model around a revolving door. So people will continue to leave, just as the have for the last 30 years. The training is due for a complete overhaul, both culturally and educationally.

3. People seem to think that in coming here Ameriflight owes them something. For example, I have seen countless times where instructors will stay late, or come in on weekends to help out the candidates. They're not doing this to evaluate, they're providing quality instruction: when the candidates don't put in the effort in return, we can't study for them. Every instructor's phone number is given out on day 1 of ground school, in which we tell the candidates to call or text at any time if there's anything we can do to help.

AMF does owe them something, quality training. AMF only exists because of its employees. During the recession, AMF operated like it didn't need employees in order to survive. Pilots were being fired for minor offenses, or being let go during training with no extra help. Now there are complaints that there aren't good, qualified pilots coming in the doors... I 100% agree that you cannot study for the student, however I have been through that training, as have hundreds and hundreds of other pilots. I had more condescending, belittling remarks from VFR only training captains in the training department, than I have ever seen anywhere else. I sincerely hope the training environment has changed, I mean that. However, you bring a Riddle rat into the mix with 135 mins or slightly below, and you force them to teach guys with more hours, you create a situation where the individuals doing the training think in black and white, either it is the standard AMF wants or it isn't. There is no thought as to why the trainee is behind, or why they are not up this perfect standard set by somebody sitting behind the sim sipping water. No dynamic evaluation, at least there wasn't any, again I hope that has changed.

Furthermore, the instructors have ground and cpt training where they walk the students through everything. Afterwards, they assist and critique as necessary, in which the students have the remainder of the week and weekend to continue studying prior to Sims (starting the following week).


4. The yelling and tones... Now here's a great argument that I hear all the time. No instructor is going to be Willy Wonka perky, unless they're a psychopath. They all have other things to deal with in life. I'll give an example I see all too often: you put someone in the sim and the instructor is trying to do their job; they explain the issue to the student, and the student argues. They explain it from a different standpoint, again the student argues. At this point, the student refuses to listen, continues to ignore the instructor and then flies into a mountain because they weren't listening to what they were being told. We all have limits, but when we're not being respected time and time again, our frustrations are made known. It takes a lot to get most of us to that point.... Especially when we're teaching basic IFR skills to people who are CFIIs and other 135 pilots. I check my ego at the door, and I ask everyone to do the same so that it's a good experience for all.

I've heard stories about the Ameriflight inductors who just yelled all the time (in particular, the old PA31 and 99 programs?) I can't speak to that, it was before my time. I came in the end of 2013, and since then I've seen a lot of great things happen throughout all of the training programs, and within the company.

I think it's fantastic that people critique instructors over and over again, but don't accept their own shortcomings. Yes, the ideal applicant has began the studying process prior and is well prepared for class, but it doesn't mean that Ameriflight only has time for them.

I know I (and any other instructor) would have no problem with ground school surveys and assessments. I stand by my instruction, and by the students that I've worked with.

Tell me again, where is the CURRENT problem guys? Change takes time to see the full effect of implementation, and it is occurring.

I am glad the training has changed, that is great. But again, more dynamic thinking is involved. I consider myself an above average pilot. But guess what, stick me in a new aircraft and load me up beyond what I am capable, and I will do really stupid things in an airplane. You cannot expect applicants at AMF to be seasoned IFR vets who are ready for the 135 world on day one. Sure AMF gets previous 135 guys, but lets face it, right now the economy is good, which means AMF isn't getting laid off, or furloughed guys with 5,000 hours right now. You are getting the college CFI, or the mom and pop CFI. Have they ever flown something as fast as a Chieftain, or 99, to and from an airport that is 20nm apart, all the while they are doing flows, callouts, checklists, frequency chances, ATIS, clearances, navigation, communication, oh and lets add an engine failure, and partial panel, all the while you are flying /A. Maybe the guy flying a seminole for 50 hours will be a little behind the power curve. Guess who else would be behind the power curve, the 14,000 hour 747 captain....
 
Eh, getting a PIC type and BEING the PIC are two different things. Also, being new in crew environment is different than being new and by yourself. A lot of these guys are out there by themselves in the middle of butt-town USA with no one to help them out, other than on the other end of a phone. Or maybe a driver/line personel will help you load, or show up a little earlier until you get used to things.

When I was a 99 TC, every trainee I had could fly the plane and follow the aircraft specific SOPs. Everyone one of them, and myself included, was a mess on the first couple days during online training with efficiency and applying the knowledge(particularly the GOM) to real world scenarios. Also, managing your other duties correctly. For example, spending too much time inside a 99 during loading is a great way to load it funny or tip it over. Spending too much time outside is a good way to run late.

I did have one trainee that I didn't recommend for a checkride. He could pass the checkride, no problem, but I felt they needed another 2-3 days out on the line to get better at managing the flight. They got shoved into the checkride and passed, predictably. Also predictably, had issues out on the line for a good month that caused delays and problems in general.

I think that is where there are some issues today, barring the other stuff we've been moaning about have changed. In the past, yeah, you had guys that were WAY better than me that only needed 3 weeks to jump out on the line and be great. Now, this is a lot of people's first "airline" style job and they are PIC right off the bat, and are by themselves. I don't necessarily think we need 2 months, like at the airlines, but I don't think 3 weeks is going to cut it anymore. That timeline has changed with some of the programs already from what I understand.
 
Eh, getting a PIC type and BEING the PIC are two different things.

You're right, the difference is that being the PIC, you have more paperwork to do. Sure the PIC makes the executive decisions but if I don't feel comfortable with what he is doing, I am going to put a stop to it. AMF doesn't give the FO the responsibility, respect, and training that other companies do, so you guys don't value that crewmember for their skill set like other companies do.

I totally get what you're saying that it is single pilot. Sure that brings a different dynamic. But you also have to realize that there are hundreds of Chieftains, Beech 99s, Beech 1900s, and Metros that are flying single pilot at other companies, and they come to AMF and often pass, but guys fail too. Did it mean they were crappy pilots, or does the training need to be called in to question for some possible changes?

I did have one trainee that I didn't recommend for a checkride. He could pass the checkride, no problem, but I felt they needed another 2-3 days out on the line to get better at managing the flight. They got shoved into the checkride and passed, predictably. Also predictably, had issues out on the line for a good month that caused delays and problems in general.

I had that once as well. The guy failed 2 checkrides at AMF and was still forced through. I have no idea what happened to him but he was a basket case. But I have to say, you know which guys caused delays and problems the most? The ones that wanted to follow regulation, to go at a professional pace, and do things like they should be done. The block times, at least in the OAK system were horrible. They were a setup for failure if you were flying a Chieftain. So guys want to do the paperwork on the ground, follow all the AMF protocol, and also follow weather and visibility requirements going into certain airports. Those are the problem children in the company?

I think that is where there are some issues today, barring the other stuff we've been moaning about have changed. In the past, yeah, you had guys that were WAY better than me that only needed 3 weeks to jump out on the line and be great. Now, this is a lot of people's first "airline" style job and they are PIC right off the bat, and are by themselves. I don't necessarily think we need 2 months, like at the airlines, but I don't think 3 weeks is going to cut it anymore. That timeline has changed with some of the programs already from what I understand

But it isn't an airline style job. It is freight... Treat it for what it is, freight. There are tons of other freight companies that face this exact issues. They all attract young flight instructors, everyone is flying the same stuff basically (with the exception of C208 guys) and other companies aren't facing the training washout rate that AMF is.

Does anyone know how long the training is to fly a FedEx Van?
 
You're right, the difference is that being the PIC, you have more paperwork to do. Sure the PIC makes the executive decisions but if I don't feel comfortable with what he is doing, I am going to put a stop to it. AMF doesn't give the FO the responsibility, respect, and training that other companies do, so you guys don't value that crewmember for their skill set like other companies do.

I totally get what you're saying that it is single pilot. Sure that brings a different dynamic. But you also have to realize that there are hundreds of Chieftains, Beech 99s, Beech 1900s, and Metros that are flying single pilot at other companies, and they come to AMF and often pass, but guys fail too. Did it mean they were crappy pilots, or does the training need to be called in to question for some possible changes?



I had that once as well. The guy failed 2 checkrides at AMF and was still forced through. I have no idea what happened to him but he was a basket case. But I have to say, you know which guys caused delays and problems the most? The ones that wanted to follow regulation, to go at a professional pace, and do things like they should be done. The block times, at least in the OAK system were horrible. They were a setup for failure if you were flying a Chieftain. So guys want to do the paperwork on the ground, follow all the AMF protocol, and also follow weather and visibility requirements going into certain airports. Those are the problem children in the company?



But it isn't an airline style job. It is freight... Treat it for what it is, freight. There are tons of other freight companies that face this exact issues. They all attract young flight instructors, everyone is flying the same stuff basically (with the exception of C208 guys) and other companies aren't facing the training washout rate that AMF is.

Does anyone know how long the training is to fly a FedEx Van?
 
Inverted when I went through training on the van for a FedEx Feeder it was about 2 days of ground at the company then off to Flight Safety for a week including checkride. You go back to your respective feeder for about a weeek of ride along to learn how to do the job then you are released to the line. The training at many FedEx feeders are a non-event and everyone does a good job to ensure your successful. I have heard about AMF training and experienced it personally whereas I believe its some of the worst training I have ever seen anywhere. I always advise people against going to AMF because of these experiences.
 
I don't discount the responsibility that lies on a young, dumb noobie captain at AMF, so the requirements that are asked of those pilots are high. It's a steep curve and AMF has the responsibility and liability to ensure that their pilots can do the job. But they aren't flying the space shuttle, it's an old twin...
 
I don't discount the responsibility that lies on a young, dumb noobie captain at AMF, so the requirements that are asked of those pilots are high. It's a steep curve and AMF has the responsibility and liability to ensure that their pilots can do the job. But they aren't flying the space shuttle, it's an old twin...
I have a couple hundred hours in the chieftain and from what I've read about some of AMF's procedures I think I'd be a trainwreck flying it their way.
"You mean I can't drop the gear at Vle?"
 
I have a couple hundred hours in the chieftain and from what I've read about some of AMF's procedures I think I'd be a trainwreck flying it their way.
"You mean I can't drop the gear at Vle?"
"No because they don't all have the same Vle."
"The gear speed is a required placard in which the airplane isn't airworthy without."
"I didn't know that because I've never flown the line anywhere and have never flown enough airplanes to notice a trend"
 
I have a couple hundred hours in the chieftain and from what I've read about some of AMF's procedures I think I'd be a trainwreck flying it their way.
"You mean I can't drop the gear at Vle?"

Hell Roger, I have nearly 1000hrs in the Chieftain and I honestly don't think they'd like how I fly it.
 
Inverted when I went through training on the van for a FedEx Feeder it was about 2 days of ground at the company then off to Flight Safety for a week including checkride. You go back to your respective feeder for about a weeek of ride along to learn how to do the job then you are released to the line. The training at many FedEx feeders are a non-event and everyone does a good job to ensure your successful. I have heard about AMF training and experienced it personally whereas I believe its some of the worst training I have ever seen anywhere. I always advise people against going to AMF because of these experiences.

FedEx feeders are night and day difference from places like AMF. I currently work for MAC, and the entire training process was laid back and quite enjoyable. You never feel like your job is in jeopardy. The equipment is much better maintained too. It helps that FedEx owns the aircraft and funds the maintenance and fuel as well.
 
FedEx feeders are night and day difference from places like AMF. I currently work for MAC, and the entire training process was laid back and quite enjoyable. You never feel like your job is in jeopardy. The equipment is much better maintained too. It helps that FedEx owns the aircraft and funds the maintenance and fuel as well.
I dunno man, your ATR breaks down in BQN quite a bit! :)
 
But it looks so good doing it!

Nah man, it's an ATR. I think ATR is a French acronym for "breaks down a lot"
I prefer it to the Brasilia and Dash 8, looks wise. The Brasilia looks like a mosquito and the Dash looks like a piece of farm equipment! They also won the contest for TINIEST nosewheels EVER! haha

I hear you on the ATR breaking thing. Our mechanics do NOT want them. Coming from a Metro mechanic, that's probably saying a lot. :)
 
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