Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion

[nocturnalaviator]

This might be one of the rare situations in the United States where these guys could end up being criminally charged.

If there aren't mitigating circumstances, this is one of the most collosal • ups I've ever read about.

The actions go against everything learned in training, every 6 months in these pilots' extensive careers. Especially the CA. It may fall into gross negligence, manslaughter. An example could be made from this one. There is no excuse for this lower level of professionalism to be in command of a transport category aircraft. I would argue this was no oopsie accident. It'll be interesting for sure how this plays out.

I agree that courts should stay out of prosecuting pilots for accidents. However, where is the line between accident, and gross negligence? I feel for the families.

 

[Minuteman]

I was curious if 21 Air was an ALPA shop. They do not appear to be (https://tapapilots.org).

But I learned from an April 2026 press release that ALPA is not a fan of the company owner, James Crane, and that he also owns the Houston Astros. From Wikipedia I learned he also has many businesses in Russia, including some Papa John franchises there.

 

[DE727UPS]

Found out an old friend got fired from there for trying to help the pilot group unionize and brining up safety concerns.

 

[🦈💜]

The actions go against everything learned in training, every 6 months in these pilots' extensive careers. Especially the CA. It may fall into gross negligence, manslaughter. An example could be made from this one. There is no excuse for this lower level of professionalism to be in command of a transport category aircraft. I would argue this was no oopsie accident. It'll be interesting for sure how this plays out.

I agree that courts should stay out of prosecuting pilots for accidents. However, where is the line between accident, and gross negligence? I feel for the families.

It's all or nothing, once you open that door.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

It's all or nothing, once you open that door.

No, it’s certainly not all or nothing.

I wouldn’t want stick and rudder errors or inflight mistakes in judgment to be prosecuted.

In this case, these guys found themselves fast and high, not a rare occurrence, and every judgment afterwards was bad. I wouldn’t want a pilot prosecuted in a case like this.

Cases like 5191 are another matter.

 

[MikeD]

I agree that courts should stay out of prosecuting pilots for accidents. However, where is the line between accident, and gross negligence? I feel for the families.

To expand on what i was mentioning before, this particular accident is going to test the Just Culture concept specifically regarding where the line that you mention, is.

Now we know that Just Culture doesn’t apply in cases of commission of a crime, for example. And these guys weren’t hauling a load of cocaine from Puerto Rico, nor did they wake up that morning planning to crash their plane and kill unrelated people on the ground. it’s definitely an accident. However, the test for Just Culture will be in the details.

While an accident, the factors coming out and the egregious nature of them, resulting in deaths of persons on the ground, is a big difference. As i mentioned before, most pilots/crews who make egregious mistakes like these, don’t live to
tell the tale, or to have to face consequences.

Civilian examples that fit this:

Pinnacle 3701. Needless loss of jet, and the crew through their own actions. Luckily, no losses on the ground.

Colgan 3407 killed 49 onboard and one on the ground, but again, no crew alive to be held to account.

Comair 5191 killed 49, with the FO surviving. While several glaring errors were made by the crew, from not noticing the runway they were on, likely not cross checking the HSI for heading, and seeing the complete lack of runway lights on the shorter GA runway they had lined up with, but not questioning it or taking pause; the surviving injured FO could have been held to account, but as mentioned before, that wasn’t done. Had the Capt survived, that may have been different.

Military side,

1994 Fairchild B-52 crash. the pilot in question couldn’t be held to account; as he died, taking other senior officers on the flight to watch over him, with him.

1998 USMC EA-6B Italy incident, those guys faced court martial twice, for different charges. with the pilot doing prison time.

I surmise that since both of these guys survived to tell their tale; and what is coming out is so utterly bad and only gets worse and worse, that unless there’s some serious mitigating circumstances; that the murky and ambiguous line where Just Culture ends and a criminal act begins, is finally going to be drawn and defined.

 

[🦈💜]

No, it’s certainly not all or nothing.

I wouldn’t want stick and rudder errors or inflight mistakes in judgment to be prosecuted.

I guarantee you that would happen.

In this case, these guys found themselves fast and high, not a rare occurrence, and every judgment afterwards was bad. I wouldn’t want a pilot prosecuted in a case like this.

As you said, apparent mistakes in judgment. And we don't know anything for certain yet. But here's the thing: if it was the standard that pilots are arrested after an accident, they would be in jail right now.

Cases like 5191 are another matter.

The problem is that this utterly fails to examine the systemic problems inherent in an accident, and presupposes that the situation is fully within the control of the individuals. 5191
is an excellent example. Bad aviating? Absolutely. Intent to commit bad aviating, or a gross lack of duty of care? Much less a certainty. Arresting pilots after an accident presupposes potential criminality as a result of any degree of negligence, but even individuals giving their best effort can be guilty of negligence based on a selective reading of events, depending on the outcome.

Police rarely deal in nuance, and prosecutors love big cases.

It also incentivizes a cover-up culture as opposed to an open, reporting culture.

There is a societal trend towards putting people in prison for revenge for mistakes they've made, and it is incredibly destructive to those who are involved in an accident. Incarceration of any duration is a life-altering, and often life-ending penalty, and we take for granted that it's "deserved." But what of a new FO in his first week, afraid to call GA because he doesn't know what it's supposed to look like, and his company fires probationary FOs if they piss off the captain. To prison?

What about all the instances at major carriers where something precisely like this happens, without the resulting overrun? Decline the ASAP, straight to jail?

I think you haven't considered the ramifications of capturing behavior as criminal, and you both heavily overestimate the positive effect doing so would have on safety, and underestimate the negative effects.

 

[arkavgal]

It's all or nothing, once you open that door.

Doesn't Europe have a Just Culture? European nations have prosecuted pilots and air traffic controllers for deadly accidents (arguably over-zealous prosecutions) and they don't have transport category planes falling out of the sky at a higher rate than we do.

 

[🦈💜]

Doesn't Europe have a Just Culture? European nations have prosecuted pilots and air traffic controllers for deadly accidents (arguably over-zealous prosecutions) and they don't have transport category planes falling out of the sky at a higher rate than we do.

Europe is a continent, and I have little familiarity the law or culture in the EU member states, their airlines, or their aviation culture (beyond that it's not one I consider particularly healthy.)

 

[arkavgal]

Europe is a continent, and I have little familiarity the law or culture in the EU member states, their airlines, or their aviation culture (beyond that it's not one I consider particularly healthy.)

Interesting. I know Europe is a continent, too My point was that maybe it won't have a drastic effect on safety if the pilot is prosecuted. I think their aviation culture is a lot like ours but I wouldn't mind hearing from someone that knows more about it. Many European nations charge manslaughter for vehicle accidents that wouldn't normally be charged in the US. Same goes for air traffic controllers, pilots, railroad engineers.