That's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. A closer analogy would be the standard a truck driver with a CDL is held to if a person is killed due to carelessness or distraction. Truck drivers are held to a higher standard than regular drivers. It's not uncommon for them to be prosecuted for manslaughter in an accident where they were negligent. I think its fair to say that commercial pilots should also be held to a higher standard.
Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion
- Thread starter Sluggo
- Start date
I'm reminded of an incident in my profession that occurred at a well-known hospital where a patient died because a nurse removed and administered the wrong medication to a patient. This was on the national news. It was not a typical medication error. Instead of giving a sedative as ordered, she administered a paralytic muscle relaxant. She manually bypassed multiple warnings and overrides to remove the meidcation from the PYXIS. Nursing and medicine, like aviation, promote a just culture that encourages open sharing of errors so systems can be improved to reduce errors and increase patient safety. It is very rare for a health professional in the US to be prosecuted for mistakes or even negligence. Prosecutors felt her actions rose to the level of criminal negligence and charged her with manslaughter. Most nurses and doctors felt she should not have been charged and voiced concerns, similar to your pilots, that the prosecution would negatively affect a just safety culture. A jury ultimately convicted her, but she did not face prison time. She will never practice nursing again.
I share this story because I think it's worth debating. Should a nurse (or pilot) be completely immune from criminal negligence for a deadly error due to willfully disregarding multiple protocols or procedures? What is the threshold for prosecuting someone in such a circumstance? Do extreme cases justify criminal actions to hold those responsible accountable? I don't know the answer. If these pilots are prosecuted, it will be an interesting test of the legal system, for sure.
I share this story because I think it's worth debating. Should a nurse (or pilot) be completely immune from criminal negligence for a deadly error due to willfully disregarding multiple protocols or procedures? What is the threshold for prosecuting someone in such a circumstance? Do extreme cases justify criminal actions to hold those responsible accountable? I don't know the answer. If these pilots are prosecuted, it will be an interesting test of the legal system, for sure.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
It is very rare for someone flying a mil aircraft to face UCMJ charges. I can't think of any examples, but perhaps Mike can. That would be like "was flying drunk, crashed into a children's hospital and killed a bunch of kids" kind of wrong doing. Punishments largely mirror those in any other avenue of aviation. The worst offenses, which are again very rare, result in losing the right to wear your aviator wings in uniform. The more common "sentence" is you are removed from flying status forever. That is significantly more common, and in many cases, occurs without a mishap having ever occurred. It can be preventative in nature. An aviator who has had several incidents, or a significant enough of one in of itself, will find themselves at the end of the long table and be relieved of their flying duties. It happens all the time. Generally for events that never would be worth making the news.
Most military accidents where the pilot/aircrew
would’ve been brought up on UCMJ charges, are ones they were killed in anyway.
One glaring one that immediately comes to mind for me is the 3 February 1998 accident where the USMC EA-6B Prowler of VMAQ-2 flying out of Aviano AB, Italy, was doing low level navigation ops at very low altitudes, below prescribed minimum altitudes, and hit and severed a cable in a valley that was part of a passenger cable car system up to a mountaintop, killing 20 Italian civilians when the car fell to the ground.
The pilot and the lead ECMO were both charged with 20 counts of negligent homicide in court martial, by trial in USMC court stateside due to SOFA arrangements within NATO. The defendants claimed that the cable was not depicted on their maps, which was actually there labeled as a cable car, but without the exact cables being depicted, but they had no defense for being as low altitude as they were. Still, they were acquitted, which the Italian government was not happy with. A second court martial on charges of conduct unbecoming and destruction of government property, was held for the erasure and destruction of a mission recording tape that the pilot and ECMO did. For that; they were found guilty and dismissed from the USMC, with the pilot doing 6 months in military prison. But the prison time was for the Article 133 and 108 charges of the court martial, not for any of the deaths of the italian civilians.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah they destroyed the tapes after landing. Those guys were mouth breathers, and somehow got out of significant prison time. And were whisked away from Italian authorities control (what you say about SOFA). I don't know many of the details, but how low were they flying to have clipped the gondola wire? Judging by USMC history, they were far FAR below what was allowed. That f***ing absolute moron earlier this summer, included. He must have stroked out due to tide pod ingestion. What a dumb f*** he was. Hopefully DCA takes zero pity on his wild incompetence and pulls his wings. What a f***bag. I didn't actually realize Aviano prowler happened on the date of my birthday, so I guess that's kinda neat. I was in high school in 1998 though. I guess I didn't know about it 
Yeah they destroyed the tapes after landing. Those guys were mouth breathers, and somehow got out of significant prison time. And were whisked away from Italian authorities control (what you say about SOFA). I don't know many of the details, but how low were they flying to have clipped the gondola wire? Judging by USMC history, they were far FAR below what was allowed. That f***ing absolute moron earlier this summer, included. He must have stroked out due to tide pod ingestion. What a dumb f*** he was. Hopefully DCA takes zero pity on his wild incompetence and pulls his wings. What a f***bag. I didn't actually realize Aviano prowler happened on the date of my birthday, so I guess that's kinda neat. I was in high school in 1998 though. I guess I didn't know about it
they were only a couple hundred feet, about as high as the suspension cable was.which was well below what USAFE allowed in the rural areas of Italy. The fallout from this one even came over to the USAF side heavy, in terms of the additional instructions and briefings we had to endure and sit through regarding low level flying ops and heeding them, that this accident generated.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I just flew the first low level those USMC morons flew up here back in June, today. You'd have to be at 100' AGL or likely less, to hit anything. I've been on a lot of gondolas, and the wires couldn't have been higher than that either. That f*****ing dip****hit who clipped trees on the VR1355 couldn't have had a brain cell alive in his head. I have no idea how you do that, but he shouldn't have ever been given wings. He should be in prison for just being stupid. I'm not advocating for civilian pilots being subject to criminal proceedings, they pay to play and aren't subject to any standard at all in training, but I have a completely different perspective when it comes to one of our own in the military. The standard is far far higher.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
While I advocated for the prosecution of the Comair 5191 FO James Polehinke, I don’t think pilots should be prosecuted for bad stick and rudder skills or errors in judgment made in flight under various degrees of pressure.
Disregarding signs, markings, lights, FAA rules, company policies, and NOTAM’s prior to take-off is another matter.
I’m not sure Polehinke knew how close he came to being charged. In the end, county prosecutors thought there was overwhelming evidence for conviction but doubted a jury would convict. Fayette County prosecutor told me that it’s easy to convict school bus drivers but would be difficult to convict a pilot.
Disregarding signs, markings, lights, FAA rules, company policies, and NOTAM’s prior to take-off is another matter.
I’m not sure Polehinke knew how close he came to being charged. In the end, county prosecutors thought there was overwhelming evidence for conviction but doubted a jury would convict. Fayette County prosecutor told me that it’s easy to convict school bus drivers but would be difficult to convict a pilot.
Roger Roger
I am le tired
If you do that in the guppy (unless you’ve got both autopilots engaged) things get spicy.
Roger Roger
I am le tired
I think there was a thread about it on here, but did you read about the medevac helo crash where the pilot had a medical event and went non-responsive and one of the flight medics crash landed the aircraft? That was wild. I think it was down your way-ish
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
That accident was waiting to happen. There aren't a ton of airports setup that poorly, but Richmond is another one that is begging to have someone take off on the wrong runway.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I live in West TN but was in Gallatin attending a comic con and saw the Vandy helo shortly take-off. I learned of the accident while at the convention.
The situational awareness of the paramedic was on point, he was wondering why the pilot hadn’t turned for home after a RTB call and found him unresponsive.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I disagree but it’s fair to claim that I may be biased. Relative was the controller and I lost friends in the accident.
There was an incident at my old shop where the pilot went unresponsive, med crew noticed, did something to wake him up (I dont know if they gave him a shot of something or what, I forgot exactly) which made him responsive just in time to make an emergency landing in a field.
Stuff like that is a reason why I always told the medcrew they were more than welcome to come up front on the empty legs back home to learn basic stuff about flying the plane in case something were to happen.