Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion

I saw this morning that the family of one of the deaths has already filed a wrongful death lawsuit on Amazon. That was fast.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
Any 76/75 drivers answer this for me. Is there not an aural warning if the correct flap setting is not set in the approach config. On LeBus we get a “Too low flaps”
I still can’t fathom how/why they added flaps damn near in the flare.
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The Airbus callout is generated by the equivalent Honeywell GPWS box that is also on this 767.

The TOO LOW TERRAIN callout was likely because they did not have Flaps 25/30 in position. It is unclear if it had not been selected yet or was due to load relief activation.

"TOO LOW TERRAIN" transitions to "TOO LOW FLAPS" when slower than about 150 KCAS (so…).

VFE25 is 180 knots,
VFE30 is 170 knots.
 
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“There was no indication in the recorded data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were deployed.”



767 guys, what is the logic for auto-deployment of speed brakes on landing?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
“There was no indication in the recorded data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were deployed.”



767 guys, what is the logic for auto-deployment of speed brakes on landing?
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If armed, upon de-tilt of both main gear bogeys.
If not armed, upon thrust reverser deployment.

But to get the reversers out you also need both main gears de-tilted. Seeing as the left main was still tilted and basically in the air for most of their "rollout" (in quotations since they were basically floating down the runway rather than rolling down), I don't think that logic was ever triggered for either case.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Are there 767’s that don’t have auto-land capability? Would AP have laughed at the crew if they tried to select out of the envelope, too high and too fast? Anybody know the constraints of the system?

Is this a case where captain was reliant on automation and was incapable of hand-flying an approach and landing?

So many questions.
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He clicked the autopilot off well before an autoland sequence would have started. As far as I know the automation will intercept the glideslope at any speed if approach mode is armed. The automation doesn't care if your fast. On an ILS you would have likely armed approach mode. It's a bit disconcerting sometimes when your fast and the autopilot catches the glideslope and pitches the nose down. It's like "your not in control of pitch now, the airplane is, get used to it". If your fast, that's when you drop the gear, and likely have the speedbrakes out. If you don't like what the automation is doing you can always turn it off. As far as autoland, per se, if the runway was twice as long for Air 21, the autoland would have brought you down the glideslope to a flare altitude, then it would slow you down before allowing touchdown. I've never seen any parameters on that exactly but even when on speed I thought the autoland floated too much. It makes a nice touchdown but uses too much runway.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
Any 76/75 drivers answer this for me. Is there not an aural warning if the correct flap setting is not set in the approach config. On LeBus we get a “Too low flaps”
I still can’t fathom how/why they added flaps damn near in the flare.
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Yeah, flaps 25 is actually an approved landing setting, so you won't get it for that but you'd get it at flaps 20. I forget the altitude but you'll get too low flaps if you don't have 25 or 30 set before landing.
 
🦈💜 said:
We need to resist that with every fibre of our being. That "jail everybody responsible" crap can't start coming to aviation in the US, or safety culture is gone.
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I agree with this. Probably shouldn’t ever fly for a paycheck again, but imprisonment is opening a new chapter of scrutiny in our already stressful collective careers. A chapter that could have some unintended consequences down the road for even a professionally handled situation that may result in injury or death.


You give them a minute, they’ll take a mile.

Yeah you read that right, I know that it’s wrong but it’s catchy.
 
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jtrain609 said:
I don't disagree with you. I think it's inappropriate in almost all cases to criminally prosecute pilots. It does not lead to better and safer outcomes, and it certainly doesn't support a just safety culture. Additionally, pilots don't normally survive when they make mistakes this large.

However.

This is, without question in my mind, wanton disregard that has resulted in involuntary manslaughter. The Florida statute states, in applicable part:



Culpable negligence is explained as:




The conduct of this crew was outrageous.

As always, we'll need to wait for the NTSB final to know all the details, but this looks egregious.
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🦈💜 said:
We need to resist that with every fibre of our being. That "jail everybody responsible" crap can't start coming to aviation in the US, or safety culture is gone.
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JDean3204 said:
I agree with this. Probably shouldn’t ever fly for a paycheck again, but imprisonment is opening a new chapter of scrutiny in our already stressful collective careers. A chapter that could have some unintended consequences down the road for even a professionally handled situation that may result in injury or death.


You give them a minute, they’ll take a mile.

Yeah you read that right, I know that it’s wrong but it’s catchy.
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Barring any exculpatory evidence or factors either known and not reported, or not yet discovered; if the myriad of discovered factors, which seemingly keep getting worse and worse, keep further pointing in the direction that @jtrain609 has cited above; i would surmise that this particular accident will test the absolute edges that Just Culture can still reasonably cover, before it is no longer able to.
 
MikeD said:
Barring any exculpatory evidence or factors either known and not reported, or not yet discovered; if the myriad of discovered factors, which seemingly keep getting worse and worse, keep further pointing in the direction that @jtrain609 has cited above; i would surmise that this particular accident will test the absolute edges that Just Culture can still reasonably cover, before it is no longer able to.
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If this exact accident happened on a military cargo jet and people on the ground died, would the pilots likely face charges in the military justice system? Curious about the extent to which military aviation has a just culture.
 
arkavgal said:
If this exact accident happened on a military cargo jet and people on the ground died, would the pilots likely face charges in the military justice system? Curious about the extent to which military aviation has a just culture.
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Very possibly. Most military investigations are dual track with a white hat investigator looking into what went wrong on the aviation safety side, and a black hat investigator looking at potential criminal and liability issues.
 
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