Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion

Pilot Fighter said:
It doesn’t look like an extra 1000 feet would have helped these guys.
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Nor would an EMAS bed, even if it was a standard/minimum length one (most aren’t, most are shorter than minimum, sometimes significantly shorter). Even a BAK15 / 61QSII barrier, had one been large enough to catch a 767-size plane, would’ve been wiped out at their speed.
 
Doing some quick math:
  • The distance from the departure end of Rwy 30 to the perimeter road is 435m (1430ft).
  • The NTSB briefing states the ground speed was 50m/s (96kt) when the behavior of the accelerometers change (7 seconds before the end of recording). I interpret this as an indication of the aircraft exiting pavement.
  • At the last recorded data the ground speed was 33m/s (65kt). I assume this was the point where equipment in the EE bay was damaged to inoperability, possibly from a collision or landing gear collapse.
So that works out to roughly 8 to 10 seconds to travel the distance from the runway to the perimeter road. I am unsure which direction the vehicles were traveling, but the aircraft would have been 90° to their view.
 
MikeD said:
Nor would an EMAS bed, even if it was a standard/minimum length one (most aren’t, most are shorter than minimum, sometimes significantly shorter). Even a BAK15 / 61QSII barrier, had one been large enough to catch a 767-size plane, would’ve been wiped out at their speed.
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EMAS can be engineered for anything.... (with enough money)

I don't know of any designed for a 767 at 100kts

(generally set up for a 65 kt aircraft expected for the runway)
 
///AMG said:
'
To the topic of Sretin and 539Restorations, even he recently admitted that he is gonna start including promotions and *thumbnails. It just is what it is. I understand that he needs the revenue, that whole channel has to be wildly expensive. I know how much a 2 post lift is, and he bought like 5, plus most recently a BMW alignment machine, wheel balance machine, tire installer, and the list goes on and on, and oh yeah, whole new shop too. I also know that he is easily sinking 30+k euro into most of these builds. Probably much more on the ones that involve an engine rebuild/block work. Likes don't pay for that, nor do subscriptions alone. There are very few channels that I am receptive to this monetization, but this is one of them. The value of the content is very high.
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I’m sure there are cool accounts out there that I’d be into the content, but I just can’t get into the YouTube thing. I’m doing a home project right now and I know there’s good stuff out there on YouTube but I don’t have the patience for it. I’d rather read a book or manual that tells how to do something because I can read much faster than a video can show something.
 
DropTank said:
EMAS can be engineered for anything.... (with enough money)

I don't know of any designed for a 767 at 100kts

(generally set up for a 65 kt aircraft expected for the runway)
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about 70 or so knots is tops for EMAS. And that is for a standard length bed, designed for an aircraft that has already been attempting to stop. Many EMAS beds are significantly short, shortest i’ve seen is 150’ long. And this is merely due to how much available room on or past a runway departure overrun area there is to build a bed. Sometimes, if a runway is already short, building an EMAS bed is self defeating, as it then further shortens and already short runway.

But generally speaking, EMAS isn’t regularly found at the end of a long runway with no significant obstructions or terrain drop offs past the end, as it normally wouldn’t be needed. EMAS is a fairly expensive build that takes regular inspection and maintenance, and hence why it’s not everywhere.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Press has ID'd the pilots: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article317168769.html

And safety concerns going publioc: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article317170777.html
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This is a good time to remind everyone that you can OPT OUT of having your address available on the FAA's airman database... all you have to do is log in to: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/amsrvs and then use the FAA Change Mailing Address Releasability Portal to opt out online.
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FYI - The CA from 21Air did not.
 
MikeD said:
about 70 or so knots is tops for EMAS. And that is for a standard length bed, designed for an aircraft that has already been attempting to stop. Many EMAS beds are significantly short, shortest i’ve seen is 150’ long. And this is merely due to how much available room on or past a runway departure overrun area there is to build a bed. Sometimes, if a runway is already short, building an EMAS bed is self defeating, as it then further shortens and already short runway.

But generally speaking, EMAS isn’t regularly found at the end of a long runway with no significant obstructions or terrain drop offs past the end, as it normally wouldn’t be needed. EMAS is a fairly expensive build that takes regular inspection and maintenance, and hence why it’s not everywhere.
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Engineering limitations and money limitations.
Just shifting the numbers as much as they can.

Pilot Fighter said:
Perhaps an EMAS system that uses Econoline vans.
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🤣

Save a seat for me on the bus to hell.
 
MikeD said:
Nor would an EMAS bed, even if it was a standard/minimum length one (most aren’t, most are shorter than minimum, sometimes significantly shorter). Even a BAK15 / 61QSII barrier, had one been large enough to catch a 767-size plane, would’ve been wiped out at their speed.
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But it might slow it down, maybe making the outcome less severe if the airplane stopped before the perimeter road?
 
arkavgal said:
But it might slow it down, maybe making the outcome less severe if the airplane stopped before the perimeter road?
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Yeah, but we don’t do safety that way.

We weigh cost vs risk vs convenience and consider unexpected consequences.

EMAS was designed to address runways that could not economically meet the FAA’s post-facto RSA standards. It’s wasn’t designed to be especially effective at slowing and stopping planes.

The big picture is longer runways contribute more to public safety than EMAS. A 9000’ runway with no EMAS is probably safer than a 7000’ runway with 2000’ EMAS. And yes, for a heavy like a 767 you would need a very long EMAS … that might not work with smaller aircraft. Yeah, it’s complicated.

Why don’t we reduce Interstate speed limits to
35mph and make occupants wear helmets? Why do we let homeowners purchase ladders and use them without hard hats and OSHA oversight?
 
Bottom line is that risk=severity*probability. Playing whack-a-mole with the last hole in the Swiss cheese is reactive and performative and not a good way to drive meaningful safety improvements.

But we also get the blue-glove specials from the TSA for coming up on 25 years so…I expect to see EMAS at the end of every runway at DEN soon.
 
Roger Roger said:
I’m sure there are cool accounts out there that I’d be into the content, but I just can’t get into the YouTube thing. I’m doing a home project right now and I know there’s good stuff out there on YouTube but I don’t have the patience for it. I’d rather read a book or manual that tells how to do something because I can read much faster than a video can show something.
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It is mostly for entertainment purposes for me. I suppose I have referenced a video here and there trying to figure out how to remove some weird part or something. But like you say, there is a repair manual (or several manuals in my case) for that. I just sometimes like to fall asleep to the sound of torque wrenches. Food videos generally just give me ideas for my own creations. I have a bazillion physical cookbooks taking up space on my shelf for the rest of that brainstorming, and it is much easier to read than zone out in a video and keep rewinding :) I guess what I "understand" is forums and YT. I absolutely do not understand Twitter, X, whatever, tiktok, etc. I don't understand wanting to hear what other people have to say/think about things. Who gives a *******t?

Also, sounds like these guys screwed the pooch bigger than *****t here. I say that, recognizing I live in a glass house too.
 
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