Am I wrong to be worried?

Murdoughnut said:
I guess most disagree with me - my concern up to this point has mostly been from scheduling. I had a trip planned a few months back that I nearly missed because he got stuck in weather that was clearly forecasted well in advance. He finally made it back the morning I was scheduled to leave - three days after he was supposed to. More recently my concern has been for the aircraft and the pilot.

Obviously I'm imposing my opinions, though - and it's clear I'm in the minority. I would compare it to getting your IFR ticket. Sure it's legal to go out the next day with 0.0 actual and fly hard night IFR down to ILS minimums - but I wouldn't do it. It just seemed to me that flying a 2,000 mile roundtrip to the midwest and back during winter, without an instrument rating, just seemed like a big step without more experience. But perhaps I'm wrong.

This isn't a guy I ever talk to, so I don't know what his attitude is or anything else. Like I said, just wanted to see what others thought.
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I actually would be at least a little concerned, though not overly. Long distance X-cty flying is fraught with interesting challenges and unexpected situtions even on a good VFR day. Most of them are minor and easily overcome by the average skill level of a newly minted pvt. But what I would worry about are those more intense moments that are thankfully few and far between. It really takes a couple hundred hours to build up a good well-rounded repertoire of experience to get a pilot up to the level of significantly decreasing risk for a serious incident on long x-cty flights. Playing the statistics of incident likelihood, he will probably be fine. But monitoring the situation would also be smart.

What I would confirm is where your insurance carrier is at on the issue. I believe there are only three or so underwriters in the US that write policies on GA aircraft and all of them are like leftover remnants of the Nazi party. I managed an office for a flight school a while back and our policy had a 250 nautical mile radius limitation for low time pilots flying without a more experienced rated pvt. as a safety pilot or CFI.
 
Since you haven't been flying with him, or really examined what he's doing, you can't really judge.

Now if he was one of those people who brag about getting caught in IMC repeatedly and other such nonsense, you'd have a legit concern.

As far as scheduling, that getting caught for 3 days is exactly the kind of mistake I'd expect a new private pilot on a long x-country to make. Most CFIs at the private level just don't teach the kind of long-term weather analysis that a student would have to make before attempting a trip like that. Now, he might deserve a dope slap for not checking the NOAA quick forecast to at least get a ballpark forecast of "Good/Bad/Ugly", but your club should have procedures in place for someone who inconveniences other members by not adhering to their scheduled flight times.
 
I guess I should have framed the question bit differently - if it was an aircraft you had partial ownership of, would you be worried then? That's really what it comes down to. Admittedly, I might be a bit overly concerned just because our club has had a member kill himself (and others) and destroy a club aircraft. I never want to have to go through that again. It's more than just an insurance write off - that's for sure.
 
Roger said:
Since you haven't been flying with him, or really examined what he's doing, you can't really judge.

Now if he was one of those people who brag about getting caught in IMC repeatedly and other such nonsense, you'd have a legit concern.

As far as scheduling, that getting caught for 3 days is exactly the kind of mistake I'd expect a new private pilot on a long x-country to make. Most CFIs at the private level just don't teach the kind of long-term weather analysis that a student would have to make before attempting a trip like that. Now, he might deserve a dope slap for not checking the NOAA quick forecast to at least get a ballpark forecast of "Good/Bad/Ugly", but your club should have procedures in place for someone who inconveniences other members by not adhering to their scheduled flight times.
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A week or two after my PVT ride I went down to Florida from Chicago with A cfii friend. We left for home 3 days early because we wern't going to chance the weather (my decision). It depends on the person, some people are smart enough to take into consideration others and the future, while others arent.
 
Murdoughnut said:
. It's more than just an insurance write off - that's for sure.
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It's a chance to upgrade! [sarcasm]

Like said before, if scheduling is becoming an issue, then he may go purchase an aircraft on his own. Perhaps you can talk to the instructor (the guy is also in the club, right?). He could give you some insight to the pilots decision making abilities.
 
I think, after entering into a partnership, you have valid concerns on the following:

1) Scheduling abuse
2) Performing manuevers in the aircraft that are prohibited and potentially overstressing the airplane (which could be YOUR problem at some point).
3) Other mechanical abuse/poor judgement - which could be your problem if the airplane is abused and it breaks while you're flying it.

Other than those issues, I think that the nature of the partnership would dictate that he and you have an equal say in things - his checkbook and yours said so. If he is not violating the law or abusing the airplane, then what is the problem? Now, the fact that the airplane is recreational and he uses it for business...so what? Unless the club bylaws specifically state "This aircraft can only be used for the fun and frivolous, and no practical or work issues are allowed" then it is hard to tell. His recreational time may be flying to a meeting, and then the meeting is work. I went to Miami last year, stayed at a nice resort, spent much time on the beach, and also went to meetings throughout Miami over the five days I was there. Was that a work trip or a vacation? If I fly a Waco to Springfield, but while I am there I see a client, is that fun or work? My fun in that case was getting to work. This would be my difficulty.

Certainly you don't want to go through another loss, and it was "more than an insurance write off". But since you haven't talked to the guy, would it bother you more than Ben Hill's accident (other than the loss of the plane)? Without being a complete nanny there is simply risk involved and you can only worry about your own or what will have bearing on you.

My advice is as follows: You said you had never spoken to the guy and didn't know his attitude or other things. I would make it a point to meet him. My hunch is that you probably will make a friend and another compadre that is passionate about aviation. Then you would have a basis for your fears, or you will find your fears baseless - but either way, you will have an educated point of view.
 
WacoFan said:
2) Performing manuevers in the aircraft that are prohibited and potentially overstressing the airplane (which could be YOUR problem at some point).
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Did he mention this earlier and I missed it? I would agree with you if he was doing that, but I didn't see it mentioned.
 
shdw said:
Did he mention this earlier and I missed it? I would agree with you if he was doing that, but I didn't see it mentioned.
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No, it wasn't mentioned. I was stating reasons why, in my view, to be worried in an aircraft partnership. Sorry for being not as clear as I could have been.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I guess I should have framed the question bit differently - if it was an aircraft you had partial ownership of, would you be worried then?
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No.

When I was part of a flying club, we had a bunch of people plan long cross countries. They would take the plane for a week or so and go somewhere.

Isn't that what a plane is for? I mean, while it's cool to do a pattern or two around airports you know pretty well, isn't it a hell of a lot more fun to fly into an airport you have never been to?

If I ever start flying again, that's what I'm going to do. I probably will finish up my instrument rating just so that I can get there if the weather goes into the toilet, but I'm going to enjoy it a hell of a lot more if I can just fly around at 5,500 or 6,500 feet in VFR conditions.
 
I don't have any problem with this. As a former partner in a Dakota with 7 others, I'd be happy to have someone putting more hours on the plane. With our Dakota, most were not flying it much at all.

Granted, long trips can cause issues with the schedule at times, but at least someone is flying it more, and that's good.

As to the "rain", one really cannot tell that much from the evidence, but at least this fellow is putting his PPL to good use and gaining some good experience quickly.

Perhaps in time this might be a sign that he will see the need to get a plane of his own, which is what one of our Dakota partners did when he was flying the plane more than all other partners combined.
 
Good advice - seems like I was wrong to assume the worst. Although if we end up with another smoking hole in the ground (well last time it was in the water) I'm blaming you guys (sarcasm of course) :laff:
 
Murdoughnut said:
So am I right to be a little concerned about this guy's trips? Or is it that I simply was overly cautious when I was a new pilot? Just curious what others' perspectives were.
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No. Unless the guy's trips are in violation of club policies, it's none of your business what he does.
 
skydog2 said:
No. Unless the guy's trips are in violation of club policies, it's none of your business what he does.
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So are you saying that as long as it's legal, and the club rules don't prohibit it, it's a good idea? I can think of a lot of perfectly legal things to do in an airplane that are bad ideas. If you co-owned a plane and saw one of your parters flying down the coast line at 5-feet above sea level, is it still "none of your business"?

I know I'm getting ripped pretty hard here, but I don't think your absolutism is well placed here.
 
Murdoughnut said:
So a few months back we had a new member join our flying club/ownership group. As a reminder, we have a 1981 172 that several of us share. The new member came in as a student pilot and finished up with one of our instructors.

Since getting his PPL, the new pilot has made numerous long cross country trips. About twice a month he goes up to the Carolinas. This week he has a tripped plan leaving on Tuesday and coming back on Friday - from St. Pete to Kansas City and back.

On at least two occasions he's taken the plane on long cross countries after another member gave it up due to sketchy weather. I've flown the plane immediately after him before and noticed dirt due to rain on the aircraft. Now I know it's not illegal to fly in rain during VMC, but I wouldn't when I was a new PPL.

So other than the annoyance of having a member who has boosted our monthly flying average from 13-hours to 30, should I be concerned that a wet ink PPL is taking such long trips? I just remember being a new PPL and balking at any sign of precipitation. I can't imagine making a four day round trip to Kansas City and back from Florida in January without an instrument rating. I've never met the guy - he's good friends with one of the club officers and a business owner (most of his trips are business related).

So am I right to be a little concerned about this guy's trips? Or is it that I simply was overly cautious when I was a new pilot? Just curious what others' perspectives were.
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It's good that you notice it! I did a lot of that kind of flying when I got my Private ticket, It was like being turned loose with your parents car for the first time. You can't force someone to make great choices when they fly alone, as long as the guys safe and he's not transporting stuff I think it's okay.
 
i think most of your concerns have been addressed murd, & i agree with waco's last post; if the person is scheduling within the club guidelines and flying in weather the pilot is rated for - there is little that should be done.

Airplanes are meant to be flown. If the person schedules for 5 days with no other outstanding conflict, then that should be acceptable. Along those lines, good on the pilot for waiting 3 days to get back instead of flying through weather beyond the pilots means.

You know weather happens...sometimes the plane is not going to get back when it was scheduled for, and to that I say tough cookies.

You'll figure it out. GL
 
Murdoughnut said:
So are you saying that as long as it's legal, and the club rules don't prohibit it, it's a good idea?
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I didn't say that. I said don't worry about it, it's none of your business. Or if you want to, worry about it, but unless your are riding with him, instructing him, insuring him, or related to him, it's none of your business. As long as he pays his dues and complies with club policies, what he does with the airplane is his affair, not yours.
 
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