ALPA and medical reform

ALPA is opposed because they don't want somebody who really shouldn't (medically) be in a plane, tooling around the taxiway, passing out (due to medical reasons) and slamming their Cessna into a Boeing.
Can you actually cite ANY incident in which a debilitated GA pilot flew his GA plane into a Boeing? I mean, who knows, maybe that actually happened. From a rational risk-management standpoint, it's a non-issue. Personally, I was never quite sure about the 3rd class reform, but making specious (or at best, incendiary hypothetical) arguments doesn't help make a case... I understand that fear and propaganda are again a la mode these days, but I'd expect more from a pilot. Maybe as part of 3rd class medical reform there should be an amendment to the 1st class quals in the form of a requirement for ALPA members to take a remedial risk-management course. ;)
 
deadstick said:
Forget BP...how are your HDL/LDL numbers?

Amazingly, perfect. My family is all overweight, and all live into their late 90s. Even my grandfather who was one of the guys the military put in trenches close to the nuclear tests to examine radiation exposure lived into his mid-80s. Finally got cancer (which the military swears wasn't caused by his exposure to radiation, of course). So I'll probably manage to live a long life despite my ridiculously unhealthy lifestyle. :)
 
Amazingly, perfect. My family is all overweight, and all live into their late 90s. Even my grandfather who was one of the guys the military put in trenches close to the nuclear tests to examine radiation exposure lived into his mid-80s. Finally got cancer (which the military swears wasn't caused by his exposure to radiation, of course). So I'll probably manage to live a long life despite my ridiculously unhealthy lifestyle. :)


Unless you're killed in a freak strip club accident :)
 
Then that's the end of the discussion.
In your opinion.

I believe an acceptable level of safety would exist without 3rd class medicals.

Honestly I don't get why this is such a huge deal. Change the rule or don't, I don't think there's going to be a significant impact on the flying community. I wish AOPA would turn their focus to the economics of flying, and less pandering to the aging demographic that are those who can afford recreational aviation.

Either way, I don't have to agree with your line in the sand that every change had to make things more safe. I'm content with safe enough.
 
In your opinion.

No, it is a fact.

I believe an acceptable level of safety would exist without 3rd class medicals.

What qualifies you to make that statement? That is like me saying the F-18 is a better military aircraft than the F-15. I have no real world experience to back that up.

Honestly I don't get why this is such a huge deal. Change the rule or don't, I don't think there's going to be a significant impact on the flying community. I wish AOPA would turn their focus to the economics of flying, and less pandering to the aging demographic that are those who can afford recreational aviation.

This I can agree with

Either way, I don't have to agree with your line in the sand that every change had to make things more safe. I'm content with safe enough.

That is like saying, 'we don't need TCAS in airplanes anymore because there is radar everywhere and ATC can provide traffic separation'.

You don't take layers of safety away. You add them or keep them in place.
 
Irrelevant. You want less safety. No.
Um... Irrelevant? Since when is the absence of contraindicating evidence a justification for limiting freedom and/or progress and/or improvement of a situation? By that logic we would have no aircraft at all. "Well, see, these newfangled flying machines MIGHT someday crash... So we're not going to allow them." If that's your world view, fine. And I suppose in that case pretty much anything anyone might say could be deemed irrelevant.
Perhaps there is a risk. Given the absence of any evidence to suggest it, I would guess not. But if so, we might determine that. If it's significant, then we could make another change. In the meanwhile, be careful not to step outside today. You might expose yourself to some infinitesimal, previously-unidentified risk.
Me, personally? I think you'd keep yourself a lot safer by never flying regionals. ;)
 
Um... Irrelevant? Since when is the absence of contraindicating evidence a justification for limiting freedom and/or progress and/or improvement of a situation? By that logic we would have no aircraft at all. "Well, see, these newfangled flying machines MIGHT someday crash... So we're not going to allow them." If that's your world view, fine. And I suppose in that case pretty much anything anyone might say could be deemed irrelevant.
Perhaps there is a risk. Given the absence of any evidence to suggest it, I would guess not. But if so, we might determine that. If it's significant, then we could make another change. In the meanwhile, be careful not to step outside today. You might expose yourself to some infinitesimal, previously-unidentified risk.

Once again, there is A LOT of evidence that proves folks (and there are A LOT of them) are ONLY getting medicated to control medical conditions because it was found on their FAA Physical.
 
Seggy already answered you. We already have safety rules in place. If you want to remove a level of safety (we're not talking about adding a new one here), then the burden of proof is on you to show that it will be AT LEAST as safe as the current regulation. Which you can't do. Hence, your argument is irrelevant.
 
All this talk about safe vs. less safe is amusing. GA is infinitely more "less safe" than 121 and even regular driving, yet there are no calls to ban it. There are many examples in aviation where restrictions are lifted and potentially make things "less safe" yet it's deemed "safe enough" to allow (ie ETOPS). Taking an engine past TBO is allowable when operating the aircraft for personal use but not when for hire is another.

Increasing onerous laws and restrictions is a great way to strangle industry. Doing the opposite (within reason in small steps) is a way to make it grow.
 
You know gentlemen, there is a balance.

We're all not going to match 121 standards. Hell, a large number of 121 carriers don't even match their own FAA standard.

Air carriers need a vibrant General Aviation and America needs a vibrant commercial aviation sector as well.

I've skimmed most of the thread and it seems like we're arguing that if it's not American 121, it's clearly unsafe. Hell, in the world of ICAO, American commercial aviation and our ATC system is pretty much a joke.

Both general and commercial aviation are in dire need of modernization, but commercial aviation albeit far, far more structured than general aviation and more available (not necessarily implemented), is no shining example of Shangri-La.

Yes, GA needs modernization, but over regulation is also killing it because it's not done smartly. American commercial aviation sorely needs modernization, but the airline lobby screams "$$$!!!" right up until the bloodshed reaches a point where it's cheaper just to do something simple like install TCAS.

We're all pilots, gentlemen. You're a rum-swilling, swashbuckling pirate. Be that and don't fool yourselves into thinking you're anything above that and it'll all be good.

Fly jets, taildraggers on your days off, be a pilot.

Personally, I think the dues money would be better spent with massive efforts on reassertion of "Captains Authority" and "Industry Restoration".
 
Seggy already answered you. We already have safety rules in place. If you want to remove a level of safety (we're not talking about adding a new one here), then the burden of proof is on you to show that it will be AT LEAST as safe as the current regulation. Which you can't do. Hence, your argument is irrelevant.
Nope. See, you're making an assumption about current safety rules. You are assuming that the current restrictions/requirements of the 3rd class medical afford some undefined "level of safety" that is as good as it can get. Does the currrent 3rd class provide the optimal level of safety? I don't know. Maybe. As I stated earlier, I've been quite ambivalent about changing the 3rd class. But you don't know either. Predictably, we heard loud, sophomoric shouts about LOTS and LOTS of evidence (but no actual evidence). I wasn't really able to follow @Seggy's statement because of how it was written, but I think he was trying to indicate that people have been diagnosed with previously undiagnosed medical conditions during their 3rd class medical exams. If that's what he was saying, well OK, that's probably correct. But so what? Having a medical condition does not necessarily make one a threat to aviation safety. Shouting nice and loud might mislead some people into believing that Seggy was providing an answer to my request. He was not. My requests were for evidence showing that a debilitated pilot has crashed into a Boeing, and for evidence showing that changing the current 3rd class restrictions would increase risk to aviation. Haven't seen that yet. Thunder is sometimes impressive, but it's lightening that gets the work done, hmm?

Do you really believe that society proceeds by NOT doing anything until that thing is proven as safe or safer than the status quo? If we did that, we would never make any changes or progress at all. We certainly wouldn't have cars. We would not have electricity in planes because it might short circuit and burn. We would be less safe because the very act of trying new safety methods might be risky. "Really, you're going remove the cable between the yoke and the control surfaces and replace it with electronic signals?!!!? That sounds risky!! We already have a system that works! Any change could be dangerous!!!"

Understand that change and improvement always involve some unknowns and/or risks. Provide evidence. Be careful about assumptions.

As far as ALPA goes... I'm surprised they are wasting their time on this when they could be spending their considerable political clout on higher return efforts to improve safety quickly... like cargo pilot rest rules.

Me? I'm sort of biased toward fewer restrictions unless there is a very compelling reason to have restrictions. I think that basic bias is what has allowed the US to have the most robust aviation culture in the world.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've skimmed most of the thread and it seems like we're arguing that if it's not American 121, it's clearly unsafe.

We aren't saying that at all. We are saying don't change the medical standards for General Aviation.

Yes, GA needs modernization, but over regulation is also killing it because it's not done smartly.

It isn't smart to have Congress handle changes in the regs.
 
Back
Top