Allegiant Airlines

HRDiva said:
Explain for those that want to understand, please.
Click to expand...

Well, cancelling all bargaining sessions can mean one of two things:

1. The Board doesn't see any progress being made and isn't interested in preferring arbitration, so they're going to cancel mediation and let both sides stew until one of them makes a move towards the other side; or

2. The Board doesn't see any progress being made, believes that a true impasse has been reached, and believes that a proffer and cooling off period would likely result in a deal, so they're preparing to issue it.

It's 1 more often than it's 2. But I'm not familiar with what's going on at the table, so I don't know. I just wouldn't advise getting your hopes up until the proffer is actually made.
 
I was thinking you would say that. Option 1 happened when I was RAH.

I agree about not getting my hopes up. But, without writing a book, the company isn't very good at negotiating. They've only actually had a manager show up to a negotiating session once. The rest of the time it was an accounting intern they basically said, "here's what I was told to say." They also have reneged on some previously TA'd items. Our CEO has basically said he doesn't care and will do what he wants regardless of the government. The NMB hasn't been very amused.

Of course it doesn't happen til it happens. But I think our chances are good.
 
Last edited:
Sorry for the delay, I was out of touch for a couple of days.

Pilot Fighter said:
Not so strange. Many union contracts have elements that are population-driven. For example, a contract might say that you can't lay-off more than 10% of your workforce. So, workforce size must be defined in detail.
Click to expand...
What you're stating makes sense so it would stand to reason that a union would want to know EXACTLY when each member would quit (if they were so inclined). So establishing a "get out if you're going to" date makes sense to me if you want to be able to calculate the total membership. The way our union did it, they had no way of tracking when (or if) every single member would be quitting on their personal anniversary or "join" date, so it would make a solid count impossible.

My thought is that it was more designed so that a union member wouldn't get mad and quit at the drop of a dime. Not being able to leave would give them a cool off period. Most members most likely forgot their "join" date until it had passed.
 
Who negotiates on behalf of the pilot group? Is it an elected pilot in the Allegiant group or a labor negotiator?
 
Seggy said:
If you haven't walked in their shoes I'd be careful to judge.
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't I? Isn't that exactly what you and others have done regarding that Spirit/Falcon Air guy? Knowing nothing about his personal situation or circumstances has not prevented you from labeling him a scab and condemning him. But then you turn around and say they have to walk a mile in your shoes before they can do the same to you? You can't have it both ways.

Not everyone spends every spare second dialing himself into the affairs of companies they have no association with. I did my dispatcher observation rides yesterday. Four legs, four crews, and not one of these guys could even identify other air carriers by their call signs, let alone speak intelligently about what was going at those companies (neither could I, for that matter). Half of these guys didn't even know what was happening in their own shop.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's what one does after the mistake that defines them.
 
There are no personal circumstances or situations that can justify scabbing. Period. What you're saying is essentially the same as "well, we shouldn't really judge this admitted rapist; after all, we don't know what his life circumstances are."
 
Just a little history here:

Maury et. al. at Allegiant were from WestAir ( United Express ) in California. WestAir was a very successful commuter airline with EMB-110s, EMB-120s, Shorts 360s, and even 6 Bae-146s. The pay was low, but the work schedule was okay, 5 days on, 2 days off typically for the Bandit drivers. Duty days were not that long, maybe a SAC-SJC-SBA-SJC-SAC flight or SAC-FAT-BUR-FAT-SAC flight. That was the way of commuter pilots in the 80s.

The pilots voted ALPA onto the property in February, 1989 I believe. This after a plea from the managers, including Maury, to not do so. Immediately conditions worsened; duty days got longer; etc. Not sure the pilots ever got a contract, but management did sell the airline to Mesa a few years later. Mesa, a non-union airline, at the time systematically destroyed WestAir by replacing their routes and aircraft with Mesa's. WestAir ceased to exist in 1995.

It's the same people running Allegiant and the exact same thing is going to happen. Management there will not deal with a union. History has a way of repeating itself.

If I was working for Allegiant I'd be looking for the exit.



Typhoonpilot
 
ATN_Pilot said:
There are no personal circumstances or situations that can justify scabbing. Period. What you're saying is essentially the same as "well, we shouldn't really judge this admitted rapist; after all, we don't know what his life circumstances are."
Click to expand...

Well, you do what you want, but attitudes like yours are are probably why unions have been on the decline for decades.
 
typhoonpilot said:
Just a little history here:

Maury et. al. at Allegiant were from WestAir ( United Express ) in California. WestAir was a very successful commuter airline with EMB-110s, EMB-120s, Shorts 360s, and even 6 Bae-146s. The pay was low, but the work schedule was okay, 5 days on, 2 days off typically for the Bandit drivers. Duty days were not that long, maybe a SAC-SJC-SBA-SJC-SAC flight or SAC-FAT-BUR-FAT-SAC flight. That was the way of commuter pilots in the 80s.

The pilots voted ALPA onto the property in February, 1989 I believe. This after a plea from the managers, including Maury, to not do so. Immediately conditions worsened; duty days got longer; etc. Not sure the pilots ever got a contract, but management did sell the airline to Mesa a few years later. Mesa, a non-union airline, at the time systematically destroyed WestAir by replacing their routes and aircraft with Mesa's. WestAir ceased to exist in 1995.

It's the same people running Allegiant and the exact same thing is going to happen. Management there will not deal with a union. History has a way of repeating itself.

If I was working for Allegiant I'd be looking for the exit.



Typhoonpilot
Click to expand...

I would tend to agree with you, except for the record profits and $170 share price. We'll see.
 
Phil Schuyler said:
Why shouldn't I? Isn't that exactly what you and others have done regarding that Spirit/Falcon Air guy? Knowing nothing about his personal situation or circumstances has not prevented you from labeling him a scab and condemning him. But then you turn around and say they have to walk a mile in your shoes before they can do the same to you? You can't have it both ways.

Not everyone spends every spare second dialing himself into the affairs of companies they have no association with. I did my dispatcher observation rides yesterday. Four legs, four crews, and not one of these guys could even identify other air carriers by their call signs, let alone speak intelligently about what was going at those companies (neither could I, for that matter). Half of these guys didn't even know what was happening in their own shop.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's what one does after the mistake that defines them.
Click to expand...
Why should any one be accountable for anything? No pass for sticking you head in the sand (or claiming so) and scabbing. Period.
 
Phil Schuyler said:
Why shouldn't I? Isn't that exactly what you and others have done regarding that Spirit/Falcon Air guy? Knowing nothing about his personal situation or circumstances has not prevented you from labeling him a scab and condemning him. But then you turn around and say they have to walk a mile in your shoes before they can do the same to you? You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
I believe what he was addressing was the idea that av8tr1 hasn't been in the shoes of any airline pilot... and neither have you. Airline/Freight pilots have been in the same/similar situations as those who have been labeled scabs and have chosen the more difficult path for the improvement of the industry, their jobs, and their future. So in fact Seggy and ATNPilot have walked a mile in FO Onno's shoes minus being a scab. Make sense?

Not everyone spends every spare second dialing himself into the affairs of companies they have no association with. I did my dispatcher observation rides yesterday. Four legs, four crews, and not one of these guys could even identify other air carriers by their call signs, let alone speak intelligently about what was going at those companies (neither could I, for that matter). Half of these guys didn't even know what was happening in their own shop.
Click to expand...
I'm calling horse hockey on the pilots not being able to identify other call signs. That is literally impossible. As for not being able to relate what the latest and greatest was at their own carrier either A) they opted not to speak to you about it because they don't know you or B) they are the type of person who doesn't volunteer, doesn't get involved, and doesn't know their own contract.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's what one does after the mistake that defines them.
Click to expand...
Everyone makes mistakes in life, true, but scabbing defines a persons character, integrity, and lack of fortitude in my opinion. Scabbing sends a clear and concise message that the individual values themselves above everything/everyone else.
 
You can't claim a general ignorance of the industry and then support/condemn the way another individual operates within it. (Edit: I guess you can, but who would listen?)

If you operate struck work, your company's or otherwise, knowingly or unknowingly, you will be a scab. Forever.

The consequences for scabbing exponentially outweigh the benefits. Every. Single. Time.

Over.
 
I don't understand why people would want to forgive scabs. Striking employees are out there putting it all on the line for improvement of their working conditions and personal lives, a guy says "nah I need my money more than all my coworkers this week/month/ect", strike ends, conditions are better, the scab benefits from the strike without actually striking. In any job in an industry, how could said scab not deserve a swift kick to the nads AND to be scorned by their coworkers for the rest of their time? Note the example of the 80s strikes that lead to numerous suicides, personal bankruptcies, ect. There's really no argument for the other side. Period.

Phil Schuyler said:
Four legs, four crews, and not one of these guys could even identify other air carriers by their call signs, let alone speak intelligently about what was going at those companies (neither could I, for that matter). Half of these guys didn't even know what was happening in their own shop.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that.
 
Last edited:
Phil Schuyler said:
Not everyone spends every spare second dialing himself into the affairs of companies they have no association with. I did my dispatcher observation rides yesterday. Four legs, four crews, and not one of these guys could even identify other air carriers by their call signs, let alone speak intelligently about what was going at those companies (neither could I, for that matter). Half of these guys didn't even know what was happening in their own shop.
Click to expand...

Did you do those legs out of SLC?

Because that'd explain why, it's a base of lifers.
 
Phil Schuyler said:
Well, you do what you want, but attitudes like yours are are probably why unions have been on the decline for decades.
Click to expand...

Unions are on the rise in the airline pilot world, though. It's a completely different environment than the autoworkers or construction that you try to liken us to. Our job is not conducive to the normal cut throat suck up promotion environment that other careers can be- It has to be a highly standardized with highly defined minimum performance that is quite high functioning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top