Allegiant Air pilots have accused the carrier of using planes that 'barely pass' safety standards

[PhilosopherPilot]

Wouldn't the "barely safe" claim also reflect poorly on the pilots for agreeing to fly such aircraft?

WTF does "barely safe" mean? Either you meet the standard, or you don't. Obviously it is better to be far above standard, but if you're at the standard, that's good enough. If you aren't happy with the standard itself, well, that's another issue altogether.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I wonder how those ValueJet planes are doing now that they are at Derg's airline? I'm sure the MX is much better....

Ten (!) years ago, when I thought it would be cool to go to Riddle Daytona, I got stuck in DAB once because a "certain large airline with lots of MD-80s" let (something - atropine, maybe?) expire in their EEMKs and had to temporarily ground a good portion of the fleet for a few days.

Nobody is immune to various and sundry airworthiness screw-ups; the rules and systems involved are massively complex.

WTF does "barely safe" mean? Either you meet the standard, or you don't. Obviously it is better to be far above standard, but if you're at the standard, that's good enough. If you aren't happy with the standard itself, well, that's another issue altogether.

You can meet the regulatory standards and still be unsafe, too.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Ten (!) years ago, when I thought it would be cool to go to Riddle Daytona, I got stuck in DAB once because a "certain large airline with lots of MD-80s" let (something - atropine, maybe?) expire in their EEMKs and had to temporarily ground a good portion of the fleet for a few days.

Nobody is immune to various and sundry airworthiness screw-ups; the rules and systems involved are massively complex.


You can meet the regulatory standards and still be unsafe, too.

True, but "barely safe" implies that they are meeting the threshold of "safe." Barely passing is still passing.

It is the job of management to decide how much risk to assume. If they meet the regulatory requirements, and decide to assume more risk than other carriers, that is their decision. It is the job of the safety department to determine how much risk is out there, and the executives decide if that risk is acceptable, or if they need to mitigate it somehow. That's how risk management works.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

True, but "barely safe" implies that they are meeting the threshold of "safe." Barely passing is still passing.

It is the job of management to decide how much risk to assume. If they meet the regulatory requirements, and decide to assume more risk than other carriers, that is their decision. It is the job of the safety department to determine how much risk is out there, and the executives decide if that risk is acceptable, or if they need to mitigate it somehow. That's how risk management works.

 

[Roger Roger]

Our planes were impeccably maintained. You could go a year without seeing a deferral on a 717.

Easy to do if you only fly in a year what many do in a month. ..

 

[bolin.drew]

It is the job of management to decide how much risk to assume.

I think the FAA would say that the PIC has a dog in that fight, too.

 

[Eagle421flyer]

True, but "barely safe" implies that they are meeting the threshold of "safe." Barely passing is still passing.

It is the job of management to decide how much risk to assume. If they meet the regulatory requirements, and decide to assume more risk than other carriers, that is their decision. It is the job of the safety department to determine how much risk is out there, and the executives decide if that risk is acceptable, or if they need to mitigate it somehow. That's how risk management works.

That's the problem with Allegiant the safety dept (at least when I was there) was run over by executives not carrying at all, everything fell on deaf ears. I suppose that could have changed in the time I have been gone but somehow I doubt it. The sort of crazy I saw there was unreal at what executives (and pilots who wanted to go home) were willing to fly. While I understand ATN's point about it not being professional, I understand why they are doing it. Also (just curious) how would anyone start to go about fixing the problems at Allegiant?

 

[deadstick]

WTF does "barely safe" mean? Either you meet the standard, or you don't. Obviously it is better to be far above standard, but if you're at the standard, that's good enough. If you aren't happy with the standard itself, well, that's another issue altogether.

I guess it's like being barely pregnant. :stir:

Also note it was the pilot group (or the IBT) that raised this flag and chose the words "barely passes acceptable safety standards."

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Easy to do if you only fly in a year what many do in a month. ..

I wasn't always a senior reserve pilot bidding call last. At one point I was flying full months. Same thing. We were quite proud of it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Also (just curious) how would anyone start to go about fixing the problems at Allegiant?

I haven't seen proof of any problem, so it's hard to say. The statistics provided by the IBT troglodytes weren't exactly frightening.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ten (!) years ago, when I thought it would be cool to go to Riddle Daytona, I got stuck in DAB once because a "certain large airline with lots of MD-80s" let (something - atropine, maybe?) expire in their EEMKs and had to temporarily ground a good portion of the fleet for a few days.

Nobody is immune to various and sundry airworthiness screw-ups; the rules and systems involved are massively complex.


You can meet the regulatory standards and still be unsafe, too.

Speaking of EMKs, how are we legal to go without Atropine?!

What if there is a green ball loose of VX gas. I need that atropine needle...

 

[MikeD]

Speaking of EMKs, how are we legal to go without Atropine?!

What if there is a green ball loose of VX gas. I need that atropine needle...

The passed out person who is pale/cold, low heart rate, BPs barely there, and pulse in the 20s to low 30s, would appreciate it. In the absense of dopamine or an epi shot/drip.

In addition to any nerve gas attack onboard.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The passed out person who is pale/cold, low heart rate, BPs barely there, and pulse in the 20s to low 30s, would appreciate it. In the absense of dopamine or an epi shot/drip.

In addition to any nerve gas attack onboard.

Yup. C_C Sr. is a Neurologist and always makes for an interesting conversation. Older C_C bro is a family doctor. I (on the other hand) was bitten by the aviation bug and no one in the family had the cure for that so here we are.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I think the FAA would say that the PIC has a dog in that fight, too.

Certainly with regard to a specific flight, yes. But the company decides how much risk the operation assumes as a whole, and that's the kind of risk the article is talking about.

Does the company require specialized training for international ops? Do they require a check airman on the Jumpseat for specific routes? What maintenance intervals do they schedule? How do they rate risk for airports, and how do they manage high risk airports?

All of those things are determined by management. The safety department may say, "KEYW is a high risk airport, and we recommend route specific training to that airport." Management can decide that the risk is acceptable, and not do that specialized training, for example.

 

[Avalon781ML]

4 in flight shut downs over 6 months, on an aging fleet the size of their's, doesn't seem that high.

I'd like to see a direct comparison to AA and DAL during the same time period and extrapolate to see if it is indeed out of the ordinary or just "business as usual." It strikes me as being odd that Allegiant makes the news as much as it does... and I don't recall hearing about engine failures at AA or DAL on the MD80 in recent years.

Wouldn't the "barely safe" claim also reflect poorly on the pilots for agreeing to fly such aircraft?

That is a complex and interesting question... to which I would answer no. Within the last 3 months I was personally involved with an "event" where the entire crew was kept in the dark about a significant "issue" until after we had returned to base. The leadership determined that the situation was safe enough without consulting the people who would be directly affected. Looking back had I been informed I would have (most likely) agreed with the decision to go but because information was withheld then what are they not telling me today... or tomorrow. This type of situation is what I would term "barely safe." First day everyday...

 

[Avalon781ML]

Are these company mechs or are they contract maintenance?

Company mechanics... in a large base.

 

[H46Bubba]

Company mechanics... in a large base.

Wow! Allegiant needs to clean house; starting at the top, before it's too late.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Wow! Allegiant needs to clean house; starting at the top, before it's too late.

That behavior should absolutely be stop-punched.

 

[derg]

That behavior should absolutely be stop-punched.

Is that like "curb stomped?" When did you get a tattoo, @Autothrust Blue?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is that like "curb stomped?" When did you get a tattoo, @Autothrust Blue?

You don't even know me, Taylor!