Alcohol rules

Alchemy said:
I would be very surprised if your company is permitted to exclude the phone liability from a pilot's duty day w/ regard to 121/135 ops.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't include 135 in there, as sad as it is. Just FYI... 135 REALLY needs a rewrite...between that and the 13 in a calendar quarter, they can use and abuse us.
 
BobDDuck said:
If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?
Click to expand...

SoCalAprch said:
I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?
Click to expand...

While this is not 100% directed towards either the alcohol discussion, or the "rest" / "Reserve" period discussion, I find it worthy enough to be placed into this discussion to hopefully give a little insight into a couple areas that are indirectly related to the topic at hand.

Rest Provisions from FAA Interpretation/Opinion said:
800 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20591


U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
Dec. 15, 2005



Captn. Michael A. Citrano, Jr.
Senior Director of Operations
Atlas Air, Inc.
2000 Westchester Ave
Purchase, NY 10577-2543

Dear Captain Citrano:

This letter responds to Atlas Air’s April 6, 2005 request for an interpretation of 14 C.F.R. section 121.483(b).[1] The request essentially concerns the nature and applicability of rest provisions in section 121.483(b).

Questions:

1.Does the following statement, which is contained in the Atlas Flight Operations Manual (FOM), have an impact on crew rest, specifically, if a crewmember responds to a company contact, is his or her rest period considered disrupted, thereby requiring additional time for required rest? “During a layover, unless otherwise advised by crew scheduling, the crewmember must be contactable within four (4) hours unless specifically released from this requirement by crew scheduling for a longer period of time.” The scenario given refer to a layover time of 37 hours.

2.How should FAR 121.483(b), specifically the statement: “In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days” be applied in the following scenario: A crewmember is assigned residence reserve. (A residence reserve[2] crewmember must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned residence reserve status. He must be able to report to an airport within 4 hours of notification, and, must call the company within 15 minutes of notification.) Can duty be assigned on Day 9?

3.Can a crewmember be assigned to 3 consecutive days of Residence reserve followed by 4 consecutive days of duty aloft in scheduled air transportation?

4.Is Atlas Air permitted to assign duty aloft on Day 9 [in the following scenario]?
a. Day 1 OFF
b. Day 2 OFF
c. Day 3 Residence reserve
d. Day 4 Residence reserve
e. Day 5 Deadhead to operating airport- crew rest < 24 hours [i.e., less than 24 hours]
f. Day 6 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
g. Day 7 Duty aloft- crew rest< 24 hours
h. Day 8 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
i. Day 9 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours

5.Is Atlas Air permitted to deadhead the crewmember to his Base on Day 9 [in the following scenario]?
a. Day 1 OFF
b. Day 2 OFF
c. Day 3 Residence reserve
d. Day 4 Residence reserve
e. Day 5 Deadhead to operating airport- crew rest < 24 hours
f. Day 6 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
g. Day 7 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
h. Day 8 Duty aloft-crew rest < 24 hours
i. Day 9 Deadhead return to Base- crew rest < 24 hours

Answer to Question 1:
The nature of rest is the same regardless of the required amount of a particular rest period, whether that rest period be the “daily” rest period, the rest period after having flown 20 or 24 hours, or the 24-consecutive-hour rest period. It must meet the three-prong test, i.e., be: 1) continuous; 2) determined prospectively i.e., known in advance; and 3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. Whether the rest period referred to in Question 1 is intended to be a 18-hour rest period after having flown 20 or 24 hours or a 24-consecutive-hour rest period, it would not be a legal rest period if the pilot “must be contactable within four (4) hours,” because it would not meet any of the elements for rest.

Answer to Question 2:
Reserve does not meet the nature of rest test for the 24-consecutive-hour rest period, even if it is Residence reserve, because when a crewmember in such Residence reserve status “must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned to a reserve status” he is not “free from all restraint,” which includes “present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.” Assuming the pilot was on Residence reserve on Days 1 through 8, none of those days are 24-consecutive-hour rest periods. Because one must be able to find this rest period when one looks back 7 consecutive days from midnight of the day of any planned Part 121 (or Part 135) operation, the pilot may not perform a flight assignment on Day 9. Instead, he must be given a 24-hour rest period on Day 9, with the assignment to flight time delayed until Day 10. See e.g., July 26, 2005 Letter to James W. Johnson, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [2005-7] (copy enclosed).

Answer to Question 3:
No. The 3 consecutive days of Residence reserve do not satisfy the nature of rest test for the 24-consecutive-hour rest period. See previous discussion.

Answer to Question 4:
No. When one looks back 7 days from midnight of the 9th day involving duty aloft, i.e., flight time, one does not find a 24-consecutive-hour rest period because the Residence reserve on Day 3 is not a valid 24-hour rest period. See previous discussion.

Answer to Question 5:
Yes. The certificate holder is permitted to deadhead the crewmember to his Base on Day 9 because in so doing the pilot would not be performing flight time. Note that the days off on Day 1 and 2 (assuming they meet the nature of rest test) would satisfy the 24-hour rest period requirement for flight time performed on Days 6, 7, and 8.
Sincerely,



Rebecca B. MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division, AGC-200

Enclosure


The FAA has not published this interpretation in the Federal Register for pre-issuance comments because it does not present a new issue. This is consistent with the Federal Register Notice of Reinstatement of 1980 Public Comment Procedures for Requests for Interpretation of the Flight Time, Rest and Duty Period Regulations, issued on December 12, 2005. That Notice states that Federal Register public comment procedures would be subject to three limitations: 1) pre-issuance comments would be solicited for requests presenting new issues, i.e., not for repetitive type questions; 2) even for new issues, the agency may issue an interpretation immediately, subject to post-issuance comments; and 3) the Agency reserves the right to modify or discontinue the use of the procedures, at the Office of the Chief Counsel’s election.


[1] Section 121.483(b) states: If a pilot has flown 20 or more hours during any 48 consecutive hours or 24 or more hours during any 72 consecutive hours, he must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the air carrier. In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days.

[2] Atlas Air fully defines Residence reserve as follows: “Residence reserve, which shall allow the Crewmember to remain at his residence until assigned to a work pattern or re-assigned to another reserve category. The Crewmember must be able to report to the closest jet served airport to his residence for departure within 4 hours of notification of an assignment from the Company. A Residence reserve Crewmember must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned to a reserve status. He shall be required to call the Company within 15 minutes of notification by the Company. He may be released from further contactability for the remainder of his work day or other predetermined period based on the needs of the operation as determined by the Company.”
Atlas Air also has another reserve category, Base reserve, that it defines as follows: “Base reserve, which require the Crewmember to remain at his Base (JFK, STN, MIA, LAX or ANC) until either assigned a work pattern or reassigned to another reserve category. He must be able to report to his Base within 2 hours of notification of an assignment by the Company. He shall be required to call the Company within 15 minutes of notification by the Company. He may be released from further contactability for the remainder of his work day or other predetermined period based on the needs of the operation as determined by the Company.”
Click to expand...
 
SoCalAprch said:
I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?
Click to expand...

Like the article surreal posted, you still need 24 hours free from duty in a 7 day period. Now, it says "free from duty," but it's sorta like the look back in 24 hours in that regard. True, reserve isn't technically duty, but you have to have 24 hours consecutive rest if you look back 7 days. Regardless, if a company had me on reserve 6 days then called me in for a flight on day 7, I'd call in fatigued. It's mental stress enough being on deck next to the phone for 12 hours a day.
 
BobDDuck said:
If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?
Click to expand...

Care to show us the regulation that supports your statement?

In fact the FAA in opinions and interpretations has said that it's perfectly OK for a pilot to be put on reserve on the 7th day (and beyond) as long as prior to accepting a flight assignment they have the appropriate rest - which in the case of a 7th day would mean releasing them from reserve for 24 hours.

Your union prevents that (bless them) and anyway most Part 121 airlines can't plan beyond lunchtime, so the concept of planning 24 hours in advance is foreign to them. However - the FAA has no limitation on the number of days you can be "on duty". Their only concern is that prior to accepting and flying a flight that you be able to lookback and find the appropriate rest.

Read that last sentence again - that's a KEY point. The FAA doesn't know duty from a hole in the ground (mostly). They know rest, and they know when something isn't rest, and they know that FLIGHT assignments require the appropriate amount of lookback rest. As long as you meet those criteria you're good to go. The idea of "duty days", 16 hour duty days etc. that you may be grasping hold of, they don't exist, and they don't cover all situations, they just cover most situations. If you want to understand the rules you have to understand lookback, everything else is a crutch.
 
kellwolf said:
True, reserve isn't technically duty,
Click to expand...

I just want to make a key point here which I think the poster understands, but in case somebody missed it.

Reserve may not be duty, but it's certainly NOT rest. To belabor a point the FAA doesn't care what you're doing when you're not on rest (duty, reserve, sleeping, reading) there is no real status for "not on rest" - you're either on rest or you're not. All flight assignments require to be able to look back and find rest, the fact that in looking back you can perhaps find other things that may go by various names isn't relevant. If it's rest it's good to go, if it's not then it's not.
 
CFIse said:
In fact the FAA in opinions and interpretations has said that it's perfectly OK for a pilot to be put on reserve on the 7th day (and beyond) as long as prior to accepting a flight assignment they have the appropriate rest - which in the case of a 7th day would mean releasing them from reserve for 24 hours.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that. There is no such thing as "duty time" per the FAA. There is "rest" and as long as you meet the requirements for that you are good to go. The discussion pertained to company's 12 hour policies. The FAA BAC/8 hour rule has nothing to do with "duty time" either.

So, from a company point of view, (and in accordance with the fact that they can't schedule you for 7 days straight on reserve even if you don't fly some of your reserve days) I am going to consider a non flying reserve day a day in which you were "on duty".
 
What fun is reserve as a commuter if you can't drink in your crashpad?

12 hours prior to check-in for your trip. Phone availability is different than duty... It is just considered when calculating your day. Who would want to sit phone available for 11 hours and 59 minutes, then get called out to work a 16 hour duty day? That's just not going to happen.

We have long-call reserve at our company, which is a 12-hour callout period. You are "on call" for 24 hours, and when you are called you are released and put on domicile rest. Why couldn't you drink all day until they called? You know, besides the fact it would make you appear an alcoholic...

Just use common sense, don't drink within 12 hours of your check-in time, and don't drink so much that you show up smelling like a brewery. You can drink an alcoholic beverage or two and be responsible; if you can't, then this career might not be for you.

PS: The Mesa guys get 8 days off a month. That means they'd have maybe one or two nights a month to drink. We all know they need MUCH more than that. ;)
 
BobDDuck said:
I'm aware of that. There is no such thing as "duty time" per the FAA. There is "rest" and as long as you meet the requirements for that you are good to go. The discussion pertained to company's 12 hour policies. The FAA BAC/8 hour rule has nothing to do with "duty time" either.

So, from a company point of view, (and in accordance with the fact that they can't schedule you for 7 days straight on reserve even if you don't fly some of your reserve days) I am going to consider a non flying reserve day a day in which you were "on duty".
Click to expand...

That's a conservative model that works for you - but it's not relevant to the original questions which was, basically, how far can I push it. Even if your company does consider reserve duty (which isn't yet clear, making the assumption that the seven day limitation implies that has no real basis) it's may not be relevant to the original question (since we don't know what the original posters company thinks is what).
 
FlyChicaga said:
PS: The Mesa guys get 8 days off a month. That means they'd have maybe one or two nights a month to drink. We all know they need MUCH more than that. ;)
Click to expand...


Just reading this thread made me thirsty for a barley soda! But I've got to go pick up the bride from work in another hour so no go.
 
FlyChicaga said:
What fun is reserve as a commuter if you can't drink in your crashpad?
Click to expand...


Never happen here. You sit reserve for 12 hours, but can't drink for 12 hours per company policy. So, if you drank for 1 minute after you were released from reserve, but you got called in to fly at the very beginning of your reserve period the next day.....oops.

I'm not a huge fan of 12 hour reserve days. I'd like to see "long call" on our next contract. Right now, long call for us is 1 hour 30 minutes sitting at home.
 
How do the kids say it... I have a "janky hoopty" which needs to go in the shop so I borrowed her car. It was a pleasant experience being able to adjust the temperature without the use of a tool!
 
kellwolf said:
Never happen here. You sit reserve for 12 hours, but can't drink for 12 hours per company policy. So, if you drank for 1 minute after you were released from reserve, but you got called in to fly at the very beginning of your reserve period the next day.....oops.
Click to expand...

On days we were bored, we'd call in and play "pass the phone" to get released. "I was wondering if I could get released? Yes? Awesome! Hold on, another guy wants to talk to you..." There were a few times the entire crashpad would get released by noon, and then started the poker games.

Of course, we were sitting reserve in Cleveland. If you were in the Cleveland for five days at a time during the winter months, you'd take drastic measures to keep from getting a bad case of cabin fever too. ;)

It all goes back to being a responsible adult. You can relax and have a good time with friends, but remember you are at work. Don't take it too far, because you will get in trouble. It's not worth it.
 
I'm on day 3 of 6 of a crashpad productivity sit and I'm aleady thinking about gettin' a 12 pack and going to town on the forum tonight.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm on day 3 of 6 of a crashpad productivity sit and I'm aleady thinking about gettin' a 12 pack and going to town on the forum tonight.
Click to expand...

But for the love of all that's good in the world man, leave your pants on this time!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top