Alcohol rules

[Clocks]

I'm a pretty irregular drinker, but as my reserve days now include every weekend I want to clear up a question that I have received different answers to depending on who I ask.

Company policy is 12 hours from consuming alcohol to "acting as a flight crew member".

-Does "acting as a flight crew member" begin at the beginning of my call-out period? (I've heard this answer)

-Does it begin when I show up to the airport (in theory the earliest that can happen is 2 hours after my callout period begins) (I've heard this answer also)

-Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

-And to add to this, when does "acting as a flight crew member" begin after an overnight (I'd assume show time)?

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

 

[zmiller4]

I'm a pretty irregular drinker, but as my reserve days now include every weekend I want to clear up a question that I have received different answers to depending on who I ask.

Company policy is 12 hours from consuming alcohol to "acting as a flight crew member".

-Does "acting as a flight crew member" begin at the beginning of my call-out period? (I've heard this answer)

-Does it begin when I show up to the airport (in theory the earliest that can happen is 2 hours after my callout period begins) (I've heard this answer also)

-Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

-And to add to this, when does "acting as a flight crew member" begin after an overnight (I'd assume show time)?

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

If you're on reserve, I'd say the 12hr period starts 12hrs prior to your reserve availibility period. Someone may argue, but I wouldn't think about pushing it. As for overnights, it starts 12hrs prior to your show time.

 

[EDUC8-or]

Uh oh, I predict a lecture coming. I'll let someone else take care of that.

12 hours prior to your duty time. Reserve periods are considered duty. (In my best Beavis voice) "I just said duty, yeah yeah."

 

[inside0ut]

If you're on reserve, I'd say the 12hr period starts 12hrs prior to your reserve availibility period. Someone may argue, but I wouldn't think about pushing it. As for overnights, it starts 12hrs prior to your show time.

Yeah that. Some guys have said it starts an 1 1/2 hours into reserve since thats your callout(whatever) put do ya really have to push it that far?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Wait. Is it 12 inches or hours bottle to throttle? Jeesh i gotta crack open those books someday.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Yes it does.

 

[dakovich]

"yes it does"


beat me to it

 

[Alchemy]

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty". At most regionals that will mean you cannot drink at all on your on-call days since you will be phone liable for 15 to 16 hours of the day (unless successfully attempt to be released to domicile rest early in the day).

During trips duty time begins at show time each morning (or afternoon, evening, whatever), and ends at the end of your "Debrief" (15 minutes after block in at my airline).

Bottom line is just adhere to the FOM and use common sense.

 

[derg]

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty". At most regionals that will mean you cannot drink at all on your on-call days since you will be phone liable for 15 to 16 hours of the day (unless successfully attempt to be released to domicile rest early in the day).

During trips duty time begins at show time each morning (or afternoon, evening, whatever), and ends at the end of your "Debrief" (15 minutes after block in at my airline).

Bottom line is just adhere to the FOM and use common sense.

Correct.

And DO NOT report for duty with a traceable amount of alcohol in your system.

Remember the FAA BAC limit, 8-hour FAA rule and your companies 12-hour rule (man, that's harsh!) are mutally exclusive.

 

[madmax]

Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

Isn't that the argument that the America West Pilots used when they were drunk in the cockpit? The plane had not been released from tug, and thusly they were not in violation.

"The defense contended that the order to return the plane to the terminal was issued before the plane was released from the tug. They argued that there was no steering at the time, and therefore the pilots were never in control of the plane. The defense called only one witness, tug operator Franklin Tejeda, who said that he never relinquished control of the plane since there was a steel rod attached to the nose wheel"

When it comes to your job/love you should be as conservative as possible.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Don't push it is the best advice anyone can give. However reserve is not considered rest nor is it considered duty. Say your reserve window is from 8:00 am till 8:00 pm. If they called you right at 8:00 am the earliest that you could possibly be there is 9:30 am. I think your duty time starts at 9:30 am. Therefore twelve hours prior would be 9:30 pm the previous night. You are off at 8:00pm and have an hour and a half to have a beer. Thats how a few of my captains explained it but they also said that the company could probably interpret it anyway they wanted to... So be responsible. And don't be out drinkin with your uniform on or get wasted and brag about being a pilot unless of course you say you work for GoJets!!!

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty".

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

 

[Clocks]

Since there is apparently some debate, I'll go with the most conservative position for the 1 night a month I might have a beer (I thought there was a clear-cut obvious answer to this, I now feel less stupid having asked).

Thanks guys.

 

[derg]

What the FAA says:

§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.

Basically 8 hours bottle to throttle and a BAC below 0.04.

However, a selected airline says, above and beyond the FAA rule listed in 91.17:

(underlines added by me because they're relevant to the discussion)

It is the responsibility of every pilot to ensure that he never reports for duty with any alcohol in his system. A pilot who violates any alcohol related policy may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including termination. The following policies pertain to alcohol:

*A pilot will not report for duty, including ground or simulator training, with the presence of any amount of alcohol in his system.

- Any pilot who reports for duty with alcohol in his system will be subject to termination.
- A pilot who is terminated for being on duty with alcohol in his system may, under certain circumstances, be considered for conditional reinstatement at the discretion of the company. However, under no circumstance will any pilot who has crossed the threshold of the aircraft door with alcohol in his system be considered for reinstatement.

*A pilot will not consume any alcohol within eight hours of scheduled sign-in.
*A pilot will not purchase alcohol (except for duty free purchases) or consume alcohol while in uniform.
*A pilot will not have alcohol in his system while in uniform.
*A pilot will not knowingly permit any other crew member to operate an aircraft with alcohol in his system
*A pilot will report for and complete an alcohol test as instructed

Notice, that the "8 hour rule" and having (traceable) amounts of alcohol in your system are treated a little different.

That's why a lot of guys get in trouble.

Trust me, you can stop drinking 8 hours prior to check-in and still have a BAC well over 0.04 BAC (FAA) or a traceable amount (airline dependent).

I would not suggest drinking while sitting reserve before your coverage obligation is over for the day.

 

[Alchemy]

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

I can't speak for every airline since I don't know everyone's regs, but the fact that our reserve phone availability time is included in duty time comes straight from our FOM. In your case, perhaps reserve might not be considered duty for some contractual purposes (part 91 flights, etc, notice your quote gives you the disclaimer "applicable only to contract compliance", not FAR's/FOM). I would be very surprised if your company is permitted to exclude the phone liability from a pilot's duty day w/ regard to 121/135 ops.

Straight from our FOM:

Reserve pilots on their first day of a pairing must subtact from the listed CCO the amount of time between the beginning of their phone availability and their show time in order to accurately reflect their duty day when contemplating a departure that might be limited by duty times.

There is no doubt that if a pilot has been phone liable for 11 hours, then given 2 hours notice to report 1 hour prior for a flight 1:30 long, he or she will time out if that flight is delayed 31 minutes (1 minute for the contractual 15.5 hr duty day in our case). If it counts toward your duty time, to me that means you're on duty, and therefore you shouldn't be consuming alcohol nor be under the influence of alcohol.

You should operate under the assumption that you're going to be given a minimum notice callout. I guess you could hypothetically give yourself another 90 minutes or 2 hours depending on your minimum callout length and still be within a "gray area" of legality, but really, if someone is planning to drink enogh that those last 2 hours are going to make a difference, they probably need to rethink their plans.

 

[CFIse]

I
Straight from our FOM:

Reserve pilots on their first day of a pairing must subtact from the listed CCO the amount of time between the beginning of their phone availability and their show time in order to accurately reflect their duty day when contemplating a departure that might be limited by duty times.

Yeh - but that's just a twisted view of the regulations. There is no such thing as a "duty day", it's just a concept invented for us dumb pilots. There is only a requirement to find lookback rest - from that requirement lot's of people invent a "duty day" concept that doesn't exist.

So the concept that reserve is not duty is not clear and the FAA hasn't really resolved it. The one thing the FAA is rock solid, definately, no question, clear on, is that reserve is NOT rest, and that's the only thing that matters.

If your FOM or contract defines a "duty day" then so be it, and that's a company convention that works for them - but it doesn't apply at any other company.

 

[CFIse]

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

Check 121.458. If you want to read this literally then:

- You may not report for "duty" with a BAC of or in excess of 0.04. But there is no mention of of an 8 limitation with respect to to "duty".

- As a "flight crewmember" you have the 8 hour limitation with respect to reporting for "flight crewmember duties", which I would argue is your report time prior to an actual flight (45 minutes, YMMV).

So is reserve "duty"? That's not totally clear. Generally the FAA considers it "not rest" if you are not "free from a present assignment for work" - and so reserve certainly isn't rest, and that's about all the FAA has been real clear on (since generally they don't worry too much about what is duty, they just want to know what is rest).

For 135.253 which says similar things on alcohol the FAA has said that "restrictions regarding on-duty use to not apply to on-call or reserve employees" although of course if called for work they are then required to be able to meet all the requirements. So that would imply that under 121, being on reserve, you do not need to meet any of the alcohol requirements as long as, if called, you will meet them upon report to the aircraft.

So feel free to proffer that defense if it comes to it - I wouldn't, I'd take the most conservative interpretation possible and then some. Of all the reasons to lose a career drugs or alcohol has to be one of the dumbest.

Finally - you say "12 hours", which has nothing to do with the FAA only your company, and since they invented the 12 hour rule they doubtless, in their own tiny little minds, have invented when that applies. That's either clearly defined in your company documentation, or if it isn't then best thing to do is ask, but any of the FAA definitions and opinions are on shaky ground with respect to a "12 hour" rule.

 

[BobDDuck]

If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?

 

[kellwolf]

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

Oh, our company loves to use this one to try to get people to fly 17-18 hours after their reserve period started. Part of the problem is we can go all the way up to 15.5 hours of duty per the contract. You're correct, reserve isn't considered "duty" time for rest requirements. HOWEVER, you do still have to have the 8 hours of rest lookback rule. So, if you're reserve period started 16 hours and one minute ago, it's impossible to have 8 hours of rest within 24 (16+8=24). A lot of times you'll get a scheduler trying to push you here with the "reserve isn't duty time" issue, so you have to politely remind them "No, I'm going home b/c you're trying to assing me an illegal trip due to Whitlow rest requirements. Have a good night."

With FAs they like to try re-starting the clock if they call them in from home reserve to sit airport reserve.

 

[SoCalAprch]

If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?

I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?

 

[SoCalAprch]

Oh, our company loves to use this one to try to get people to fly 17-18 hours after their reserve period started. Part of the problem is we can go all the way up to 15.5 hours of duty per the contract. You're correct, reserve isn't considered "duty" time for rest requirements. HOWEVER, you do still have to have the 8 hours of rest lookback rule. So, if you're reserve period started 16 hours and one minute ago, it's impossible to have 8 hours of rest within 24 (16+8=24). A lot of times you'll get a scheduler trying to push you here with the "reserve isn't duty time" issue, so you have to politely remind them "No, I'm going home b/c you're trying to assing me an illegal trip due to Whitlow rest requirements. Have a good night."

With FAs they like to try re-starting the clock if they call them in from home reserve to sit airport reserve.

Right I understand that. If your reserve window is from 8:00 am to 8:00 Pm your rest ended at 8:00 am. They call you for a flight and the latest you could possibly fly would be midnight because you look back and see that your required 8 hours of rest started at midnight the following night. But there is nothing that has to do with duty. However we can only be scheduled for 14 hours of duty per our contract. I agree, 8 hours rest is all the FAA is concerened with. But just like if you are holding a line alcohol consumption is 12 hours till you report for duty. The earliest we can report for duty is 90 minutes after the earliest call in. That gives you an hour and a half to have a beer with dinner the previous night. I would never think of pushing it but this is how I interpret the rule.

And for the thread title yes i agree Alcohol does Rule! :crazy::crazy: