Alaska Hawaiian Merger

Skåning said:
Also consider the amount of negotiating capital that we will need to burn just to get the HA guys up to industry standard pay. They are very far behind on both NB and WB rates. It's a big lift and they are looking at massive raises.
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Probably less than the amount of capital it will take to bring your vacation up to the industry/hawaian pwa.

Money is just money. Head count drivers are tough things to get. The PWA gets 2 pay increases in it's final year so when you run the payrates out into the future the difference is considerably less than it is over the next 18 months. Yes, TVM and all of that, but on a contract cycle scale the difference is only a few percentage points. Our management wouldn't agree to a snap up last time due to the unknown, but was ok with putting pay raises 6 months apart as they would know the costs.
 
BobDDuck said:
Probably less than the amount of capital it will take to bring your vacation up to the industry/hawaian pwa.

Money is just money. Head count drivers are tough things to get. The PWA gets 2 pay increases in it's final year so when you run the payrates out into the future the difference is considerably less than it is over the next 18 months. Yes, TVM and all of that, but on a contract cycle scale the difference is only a few percentage points. Our management wouldn't agree to a snap up last time due to the unknown, but was ok with putting pay raises 6 months apart as they would know the costs.
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Would it be possible to just fence off the widebody flying so no HAL pilots are affected in terms of career expectations?

I can’t really wrap my head around how it would work. But basically make it so the HAL pilots would have their career expectations intact without giving them an artificial seniority bump to protect those expectations?
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Would it be possible to just fence off the widebody flying so no HAL pilots are affected in terms of career expectations?

I can’t really wrap my head around how it would work. But basically make it so the HAL pilots would have their career expectations intact without giving them an artificial seniority bump to protect those expectations?
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Probably but i don't know... like I said before, the people working on it are way smarter than me. The requirements and goals are pretty clearly laid out in Section 45 and the goal is to do the least amount of harm to everyone.
 
BobDDuck said:
Probably less than the amount of capital it will take to bring your vacation up to the industry/hawaian pwa.
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What vacation? We can split ours many ways and max our time off.

Our top end is 41 days, and when taken as 5 vac days contiguous, comes with 2 GDOs at front/back end. So 8 weeks of vacation. But you can split the days to whatever you want, with the only limit being one single vacation day by itself in a month. Otherwise has to be 2 or more contiguous days.



BobDDuck said:
Money is just money. Head count drivers are tough things to get. The PWA gets 2 pay increases in it's final year so when you run the payrates out into the future the difference is considerably less than it is over the next 18 months. Yes, TVM and all of that, but on a contract cycle scale the difference is only a few percentage points. Our management wouldn't agree to a snap up last time due to the unknown, but was ok with putting pay raises 6 months apart as they would know the costs.
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You lost me at “money is just money.”
 
Reserve4Ever said:
All the comments about what Hawaiian’s future prospects as a stand alone company would have been are going to be meaningless in arbitration, hopefully the Alaska negotiators are not stupid enough to use that as an arguing point.
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ALPA to ALPA mergers are supposed to be more seamless now, with less of this type of stuff.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
ALPA to ALPA mergers are supposed to be more seamless now, with less of this type of stuff.
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Back in the day, in my AF Reserve squadron, we had both a USAir and an America West guy as part timer pilots. They both refused to talk to one another or work together. CO had to finally call both in to a meeting during drill to cease bringing their civilian job BS to the mil job, and to do their job here as professionals when they are on duty, including working together; or he was going to formally Article 15 or LOR both their asses.
 
MikeD said:
Back in the day, in my AF Reserve squadron, we had both a USAir and an America West guy as part timer pilots. They both refused to talk to one another or work together. CO had to finally call both in to a meeting during drill to cease bringing their civilian job BS to the mil job, and to do their job here as professionals when they are on duty, including working together; or he was going to formally Article 15 or LOR both their asses.
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Did it work?
 
mwflyer said:
Did it work?
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Seemed to. We had a BBQ luncheon on that day, and the tables were all open to sit at, except for two seats at a table that only had four chairs, where two of the chairs next to each other had “reserved” tags on them with those guys names on them. The other two chairs at that table were the CO, and me. They seemed to at least act the part reluctantly well, in terms of getting along. Not sure if it was just a mutual agreement while there. At least they talked to one another about the good quality BBQ they were each eating. From then on at work, was generally the same. I think the CO threatened to involuntarily activate them to active duty, to be deployed together to some non-flying deployment at some craphole remote forward base that needed a liaison officer in the combat zones we had back then. Maybe scared them into rethinking bringing their childish airline baggage to the mil side.
 
MikeD said:
I think the CO threatened to involuntarily activate them to active duty, to be deployed together to some non-flying deployment at some craphole remote forward base that needed a liaison officer in the combat zones we had back then. Maybe scared them into rethinking bringing their childish airline baggage to the mil side.
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Haha I do like visualizing this. Sounds like the plot of a decent movie. Personally, I have a hard time understanding how two guys could be so passionate about their part time airline jobs to reach this point. Yes i know that merger was contentious, but holy crap. The reserves are the brotherhood. Don’t be a •, it’s a great deal and you’re lucky to be there……many many many of your active duty friends who left didn’t have the same opportunity.
 
Reserve4Ever said:
All the comments about what Hawaiian’s future prospects as a stand alone company would have been are going to be meaningless in arbitration, hopefully the Alaska negotiators are not stupid enough to use that as an arguing point.
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I found it helpful to read through the AS/VX SLI arbitration. One of my friends is an attorney and also a big fan of AS. I've got a lot of questions to ask her about this and she'll probably want to read the SLI arbitration and then ask me a gazillion questions. She always has something brilliant and unexpected to say once she's looked at all the angles.

In my cave man brain, designed to eat berries and hunt fish and snakes with a stick all I can come up with is that this SLI is going to be a lot more difficult to arbitrate since class and category are so different. I think @///AMG's idea of a super fence is actually really good and fair for both sides. Maybe it can have a DMZ as well just for the funsies.

@BobDDuck does the companies operational need weigh into the SLI? Since Angle Lake seems so keen to get us all on one page to grow as fast as possible?

///AMG said:
Haha I do like visualizing this. Sounds like the plot of a decent movie
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With Brad Pitt and George Clooney lol.

 
One group that isn’t so en vogue right now in discussion is the inter islands/717 guys. I know a number of them and they seem very happy and content with life. I fear they will be lost in all of this, and maybe take a disproportionate hit to their flying/QOL/good deal. There is no way the optimizer isn’t coming for them and their day trips.
 
///AMG said:
One group that isn’t so en vogue right now in discussion is the inter islands/717 guys. I know a number of them and they seem very happy and content with life. I fear they will be lost in all of this, and maybe take a disproportionate hit to their flying/QOL/good deal. There is no way the optimizer isn’t coming for them and their day trips.
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Maybe they are hoping that no one notices them and they just come out unscathed on the other side? 😅
 
Skåning said:
Also consider the amount of negotiating capital that we will need to burn just to get the HA guys up to industry standard pay. They are very far behind on both NB and WB rates. It's a big lift and they are looking at massive raises.
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Before you even think of going there, should we consider the amount of negotiating capital that will be needed to burn to get the Alaska guys/gals up to industry scope language? Last time I checked Scope is Section 1, Pay Rates Section 3....wonder why...
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
What vacation? We can split ours many ways and max our time off.


You lost me at “money is just money.”
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Your vacation is 3:30 per day. Hawaiian's is 4 per day. At 41 days that's an extra 20 hours per pilot. That means for every 41 pilots you need an additional pilot to cover a 82 hour ALV. So 90 additional pilots (if every current alaska pilot was maxed out on vacation accrual... which of course they aren't).

With pay rates increases, the cost to the company is just the increase in pay plus the DC component. With adding pilots it's the yearly pay (so maybe an average of $250k) plus 30% to 40% fringe... so another $100k or so).

Again, when it comes to negotiating capital, money is just money, and head count is real cost.
 
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