Alaska Hawaiian Merger

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The company has no part in SLI negotiations. Your merger committee is made up of 3 (soon to be 4 I think) of your line pilots who are appointed by the MEC. If you trust your MEC reps, then you trust your merger committee to fight for what is best for you. If you don't trust your merger committee will do what is best for you, then recall your reps and put people in place that you trust to appoint a merger committee that you can trust.

Waste of time. Have you heard anything on SLI assessments? I think our contract says company gives $1-2 million, hopefully that’s enough.

I still remember 2015 we voted in ALPA. Merger announced 2016, and then a 1.5% assessment for the SLI war chest. At the time it was 1.9% dues plus 1.5% assessment, IIRC, 3.4% of dues going out the door. And we still had some pilots who refused to join ALPA. These pilots continued steadfast until the union and mgt finally got an agency shop LOA to force their hands. Luckily the union published a list of members versus non-members, so you could at least see who the free loading backstabbers were.




All those assessments, dues, all in the end to submit a 15/85 proposal from VX and a 70/30 proposal from AS.


Serious waste of time and it only pissed people off to read the others views in the SLI hearings at Santa Monica.

It would be so much more peaceful, more quick, if we just took both lists, tossed them to the arbitrators right off the bat and let them come back with a decision. I know that can’t happen, and ALPA has a process to follow first.


But you know darn well hell could be frozen over and our two sides still wouldn’t agree mutually on a SLI.

 

[BobDDuck]

Waste of time. Have you heard anything on SLI assessments? I think our contract says company gives $1-2 million, hopefully that’s enough.

I still remember 2015 we voted in ALPA. Merger announced 2016, and then a 1.5% assessment for the SLI war chest. At the time it was 1.9% dues plus 1.5% assessment, IIRC, 3.4% of dues going out the door. And we still had some pilots who refused to join ALPA. These pilots continued steadfast until the union and mgt finally got an agency shop LOA to force their hands. Luckily the union published a list of members versus non-members, so you could at least see who the free loading backstabbers were.




All those assessments, dues, all in the end to submit a 15/85 proposal from VX and a 70/30 proposal from AS.


Serious waste of time and it only pissed people off to read the others views in the SLI hearings at Santa Monica.

It would be so much more peaceful, more quick, if we just took both lists, tossed them to the arbitrators right off the bat and let them come back with a decision. I know that can’t happen, and ALPA has a process to follow first.


But you know darn well hell could be frozen over and our two sides still wouldn’t agree mutually on a SLI.

Up to $3.5 million to each pilot group for the entire process but a lot of things like JNC and MEC meetings are paid for outside that 3.5.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

People in my NH group chat are going nuts on speculation already…like my dudes, we’re on the bottom no matter what happens.

Everyone happy? No?

GOOD.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Everyone happy? No?

GOOD.

This is the only correct answer

 

[///AMG]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The company has no part in SLI negotiations. Your merger committee is made up of 3 (soon to be 4 I think) of your line pilots who are appointed by the MEC. If you trust your MEC reps, then you trust your merger committee to fight for what is best for you. If you don't trust your merger committee will do what is best for you, then recall your reps and put people in place that you trust to appoint a merger committee that you can trust.

I have no issue with them. Replace “management pilot” with our MEC appointees. I doubt they will concede to allowing us all to be stapled to the bottom of our own seniority list. Example you mention is bizarre. We agree to giving you all a seniority bump to protect your WB rights, meanwhile, with that seniority bump, we can also expect to have guys swoop in and pick up 737 upgrades on the west coast that nobody around here has had (save 1) for the last 17 months? Did i get that right? Seems like the least equitable solution imaginable. Hope your MEC has a better plan than that. Career expectations also involve the idea that your airline would have ceased to exist. I dont think that will be a stone left unturned. I dont care what happens, so long as i dont take some mad seniority hit and get displaced to another base. Fully support fences or whatever other equitable measure your guys and ours can negotiate to protect your WB flying……I have no desire to take any of that away from you all. But recognize the one-sidedness of the solution you just proposed.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I have no issue with them. Replace “management pilot” with our MEC appointees. I doubt they will concede to allowing us all to be stapled to the bottom of our own seniority list. Example you mention is bizarre. We agree to giving you all a seniority bump to protect your WB rights, meanwhile, with that seniority bump, we can also expect to have guys swoop in and pick up 737 upgrades on the west coast that nobody around here has had (save 1) for the last 17 months? Did i get that right? Seems like the least equitable solution imaginable. Hope your MEC has a better plan than that. Career expectations also involve the idea that your airline would have ceased to exist. I dont think that will be a stone left unturned. I dont care what happens, so long as i dont take some mad seniority hit and get displaced to another base. Fully support fences or whatever other equitable measure your guys and ours can negotiate to protect your WB flying……I have no desire to take any of that away from you all. But recognize the one-sidedness of the solution you just proposed.

Don’t bother. The Duck is a good dude, even if the message/tone came off harsh. It’s not worth driving the blood pressure up.


In the end, no one knows. I have every intention of reading the AS proposal and laughing, and then the Hawaiian proposal and laughing. Then I’ll put on the serious reading glasses for the final arbitration decision and give it a good read. After that, swallow the red pill and get on with it. The most important fact is none of us can change the outcome. It will be whatever the arbitrators decide.

 

[///AMG]

Don’t bother. The Duck is a good dude, even if the message/tone came off harsh. It’s not worth driving the blood pressure up.


In the end, no one knows. I have every intention of reading the AS proposal and laughing, and then the Hawaiian proposal and laughing. Then I’ll put on the serious reading glasses for the final arbitration decision and give it a good read. After that, swallow the red pill and get on with it. The most important fact is none of us can change the outcome. It will be whatever the arbitrators decide.

No i agree, believe me, my blood pressure is nowhere near getting worked up over this (much bigger stressors in my life, wearing other hats). And I am sure Duck is great. I have other HAL friends who have said similar things in recent days, so I was just curious what the actual rumor mill/angle they are trying to work is. I’m happy to be a little unhappy in the end, I think that is to be expected. I am sure that the final decision/arbitration will be a compromise that makes some sense. I would just push back a bit on the notion that they seem to have over there, that our guys are all cheering about how soon they’re gonna start flying WB lines. Many of us want just as much of nothing to do with that, as I imagine their inter island guys do. Yes, there are some folks who are ignorant or woefully optimistic. To me, it would be great if nothing really changes, and I just pick up a pretty awesome expansion to my own-metal non-rev network. Like I said, I’d like for us to take nothing from the HAL pilot group, and it would be awesome if they view us the same way. Which hopefully is the case (mutually)

 

[BobDDuck]

I have no issue with them. Replace “management pilot” with our MEC appointees. I doubt they will concede to allowing us all to be stapled to the bottom of our own seniority list. Example you mention is bizarre. We agree to giving you all a seniority bump to protect your WB rights, meanwhile, with that seniority bump, we can also expect to have guys swoop in and pick up 737 upgrades on the west coast that nobody around here has had (save 1) for the last 17 months? Did i get that right? Seems like the least equitable solution imaginable. Hope your MEC has a better plan than that. Career expectations also involve the idea that your airline would have ceased to exist. I dont think that will be a stone left unturned. I dont care what happens, so long as i dont take some mad seniority hit and get displaced to another base. Fully support fences or whatever other equitable measure your guys and ours can negotiate to protect your WB flying……I have no desire to take any of that away from you all. But recognize the one-sidedness of the solution you just proposed.

You seem to be confusing past arbitrator's decisions with solutions I am proposing.

I'm proposing nothing. It's not my job to do that. People way smarter than I are building models using really overpriced software, and talking with very highly compensated lawyers to come up with a proposal that will get the absolute most for their pilot group and still not get laughed out of the conference room when they eventually present it to an arbitrator (see: USAirways ALPA circa 2007.)

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No i agree, believe me, my blood pressure is nowhere near getting worked up over this (much bigger stressors in my life, wearing other hats). And I am sure Duck is great. I have other HAL friends who have said similar things in recent days, so I was just curious what the actual rumor mill/angle they are trying to work is. I’m happy to be a little unhappy in the end, I think that is to be expected. I am sure that the final decision/arbitration will be a compromise that makes some sense.

When you read HAL’a proposal, you’ll be pissed. And when they read the AS proposal, they’ll be pissed. In the end, hopefully the final answer is somewhere in between the two proposals.

 

[///AMG]

You seem to be confusing past arbitrator's decisions with solutions I am proposing.

I'm proposing nothing. It's not my job to do that. People way smarter than I are building models using really overpriced software, and talking with very highly compensated lawyers to come up with a proposal that will get the absolute most for their pilot group and still not get laughed out of the conference room when they eventually present it to an arbitrator (see: USAirways ALPA circa 2007.)

Like i said, hopefully they end up having a more equitable proposal than the one you theorized here. Perhaps there is nuance to the seniority bump idea that would make it not be laughed out of said conference room though.

 

[Roger Roger]

I would just push back a bit on the notion that they seem to have over there, that our guys are all cheering about how soon they’re gonna start flying WB lines. Many of us want just as much of nothing to do with that, as I imagine their inter island guys do. Yes, there are some folks who are ignorant or woefully optimistic.

I don’t know how big it is, but there is definitely a demographic in a certain mothership base that is drooling over that.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You seem to be confusing past arbitrator's decisions with solutions I am proposing.

I'm proposing nothing. It's not my job to do that. People way smarter than I are building models using really overpriced software, and talking with very highly compensated lawyers to come up with a proposal that will get the absolute most for their pilot group and still not get laughed out of the conference room when they eventually present it to an arbitrator (see: USAirways ALPA circa 2007.)

They’re just wasting time. It’s not like your group and mine are going to agree. It’s going to arbitration. I know they have to do this anyway, procedure and all.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I have no issue with them. Replace “management pilot” with our MEC appointees. I doubt they will concede to allowing us all to be stapled to the bottom of our own seniority list. Example you mention is bizarre. We agree to giving you all a seniority bump to protect your WB rights, meanwhile, with that seniority bump, we can also expect to have guys swoop in and pick up 737 upgrades on the west coast that nobody around here has had (save 1) for the last 17 months? Did i get that right? Seems like the least equitable solution imaginable. Hope your MEC has a better plan than that. Career expectations also involve the idea that your airline would have ceased to exist. I dont think that will be a stone left unturned. I dont care what happens, so long as i dont take some mad seniority hit and get displaced to another base. Fully support fences or whatever other equitable measure your guys and ours can negotiate to protect your WB flying……I have no desire to take any of that away from you all. But recognize the one-sidedness of the solution you just proposed.

Ceased to exist is a stretch. Bailed out? Maybe. The gem and pride of the State of Hawaii. Restructured? Possibly. Ceased to exist is a pipe dream for AS pilot in denial about the likely outcome of this SLI.

The most recent rumor I’ve heard involved hundreds of senior AS FOs who can not hold a first class medical. Sucks for them but it could offset some pain.

Junior captains and those who want to upgrade are probably going to be the big losers. I don’t think Mr Duck’s assessment is too far off.

There’s nothing you or I can do about it. In early 2018 there were some pretty salty guys on the line. It wasn’t fun to be around. Brace yourselves.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Like i said, hopefully they end up having a more equitable proposal than the one you theorized here. Perhaps there is nuance to the seniority bump idea that would make it not be laughed out of said conference room though.

Duck’s proposal looks only at the current snapshot, and assumes HAL was an equal carrier in terms of long term prospects and stability.

A huge wildcard is this Amazon flying - I hope we dump this garbage ASAP. Hey Duck, imagine getting permanent fencing and seniority bump because you want to account for 10 WBs in CVG in the SLI, which are by DEFINITION contracted flying, in limited duration. And what happens when we lose Amazon and close the operation a year or two later. You’d consider that “fair?” As you said yourself, fences are temporary but seniority is forever. I don’t think it’s fair for your side to tie a permanent horse on a temporary Amazon gig, and demand permanent seniority over a limited contract that we could lose any day in the future.

It’s a heaping pile of poop, and it’s probably going to be ugly.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ceased to exist is a stretch. Bailed out? Maybe. The gem and pride of the State of Hawaii. Restructured? Possibly. Ceased to exist is a pipe dream for AS pilot in denial about the likely outcome of this SLI.

The most recent rumor I’ve heard involved hundreds of senior AS FOs who can not hold a first class medical. Sucks for them but it could offset some pain.

Junior captains and those who want to upgrade are probably going to be the big losers. I don’t think Mr Duck’s assessment is too far off.

There’s nothing you or I can do about it. In early 2018 there were some pretty salty guys on the line. It wasn’t fun to be around. Brace yourselves.

Not cease to exist. But a stand-alone Hawaiian’s main problem was losing money post Covid. Hawaii hasn’t recovered fully. That’s fact. Esp Asia, and only getting worse under Trump.

The problem is too many widebodies in HNL with not enough profitable places to fly them. That’s why AS plan makes sense, remove HNL widebody capacity, re-deploy to SEA and try international Asia/Europe from SEA. A stand-alone Hawaiian couldn’t pull that off.


Their standalone future was that of Spirit. A trip to BK, shedding planes and employees, and then emerging smaller but stronger.

 

[///AMG]

Junior captains and those who want to upgrade are probably going to be the big losers. I don’t think Mr Duck’s assessment is too far off.

Yeah I would kind of assume this to be the case, regardless of whether Duck’s prediction comes to pass. I think my seniority group will also get jostled around pretty well, even with just straight DOH, since both airlines were doing big hiring at the same time(s). Which i fully expect, and makes perfect sense to me.

 

[///AMG]

Not cease to exist. But a stand-alone Hawaiian’s main problem was losing money post Covid. Hawaii hasn’t recovered fully. That’s fact. Esp Asia, and only getting worse under Trump.

The problem is too many widebodies in HNL with not enough profitable places to fly them. That’s why AS plan makes sense, remove HNL widebody capacity, re-deploy to SEA and try international Asia/Europe from SEA. A stand-alone Hawaiian couldn’t pull that off.


Their standalone future was that of Spirit. A trip to BK, shedding planes and employees, and then emerging smaller but stronger.

Also, IMHO, an expanded/growth fleet of SEA WB base with fences would be a great opportunity for HAL CONUS commuters, that harms literally nobody (other than the population of a few current SEA ignoramases who think they’re going to the 787 once this is said and done). Make it a 30 year fence for all i care. 100 years, who gives a •

 

[Roger Roger]

I’m holding out for:
-beards for Alaska pilots and jeans/t shirts for Hawaiian cargo pilots
-Elsa/Moana Disney merger livery
-“Milk Run” added to the boarding music playlist
-JNU outstation base

 

[///AMG]

I’m holding out for:
-beards for Alaska pilots and jeans/t shirts for Hawaiian cargo pilots
-Elsa/Moana Disney merger livery
-“Milk Run” added to the boarding music playlist
-JNU outstation base

You will get none of those things. But you will continue to get the Tillamook burger on every crew meal. You’re welcome.

It’s quickly becoming my favorite burger. Not because i actually like it, but because it is the only burger in my life, and by definition has to therefore also be my favorite

I actually do like the Elsa/Moana idea, and I fully fully fully support a JNU full pilot base. As many of you as they can pack into a base. I love it

 

[///AMG]

The most recent rumor I’ve heard involved hundreds of senior AS FOs who can not hold a first class medical. Sucks for them but it could offset some pain.

Forgot to mention this, but it is interesting. I mean I haven’t gotten a 1st class in a few years now either so *knocks on wood*. But there has to be a reason that so many super senior pilots are on the right seat in SEA. I get QOL for the lower end of that, but most of those folks would have great QOL in the left seat too. Which leaves medical, training failure, fear of upgrading, or just not wanting the upgrade. I’d imagine there are a few in the last 3 of those categories, but #1 and #2 have to be the biggest group occupying that space. So yeah, it’ll be interesting to see how the August bid pans out.