AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

ATN_Pilot said:
None of this is ALPA's fault. Waco can try to paint it that way if he wants, but this has nothing to do with ALPA. This has to do with our pilots making a decision on their own that the risks are too great, and they'd rather take the sure thing than fight for years. ALPA would give us full support whichever way we went, but the decision is ours, not ALPA's.
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I wasn't trying to "paint" it any way. Whether you call it ALPA, or ATN ALPA, or Mary Poppins - SWAPA and SWA owned you. The mistake was not taking the first offer to the pilot group. Now, SWA and SWAPA can legitimately say "Gee...we offered a much better deal the first time around, but they didn't even let you vote" which could somewhat blunt internal criticism. That was the mistake though - an enormous miscalculation by (someone...ALPA, ATN MEC) that gave even worse seniority as well as not as much pay. So, assuming you pay dues to ALPA for their "expert" negotiating skills, I simply assumed the failure was ALPA's.
 
Polar742 said:
Would you take that 10k today to sit as a FO with the exact same junior schedule you have for the next 10 years?
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If you're gonna have that bad of a schedule as an FO, CA is gonna suck worse. If they were both about equal, then yeah, I'd go for the extra $10k. Not sure how realistic that scenario would be, though. It's pretty much a given that FOs move up quicker on the seniority ladder than CAs. I doubt they'll see no upgrades or movement for a decade.

I don't have a dog in the whole merger thing between AirTran and SWA. If I was lucky enough to get hired, I'd be behind all of them anyway. I probably should quoted this before my response:

ATN_Pilot said:
Being an FO and being a captain are two very different jobs. Everyone likes to say it's only about the pay, because they don't want to sound egotistical, but the reality is that if you told a captain that you would give him an extra $10k a year to downgrade to FO, or he could stay in his captain seat for his current pay, then almost every single one would take the captain seat and give up the $10k.
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While I agree with the first part, I don't agree with the second. I don't think "almost every single one" would stay CAs over the money. QoL is a big motivator. We had guys choose to downgrade back to regional FO rather than get bumped out of their base earlier this year. I don't know if ATN was just talking about AirTran or pilots in general. I can't speak to the feelings at AirTran, but I can say it's probably closer to a 40/60 split in Qol vs $$$$ in my experience.
 
WacoFan said:
They didn't screw anything up. The airline took care of a VAST majority of their pilots (the SWA group) and SWAPA did an admirable job of getting a good deal for their clients (SWA pilots). "Labor" didn't lose at all - one union (SWAPA) just did phenominally better than a competing union (ALPA) and hammered them. SWA ended up with a deal that keeps a vast majority of their pilots happy, and any bad attitudes can, and will, be weeded out in various ways - and I imagine that this message will be imparted to the new group. It also serves as a pretty good lesson to the pilots (on both sides) of "Don't screw with management, they aren't messing around".
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I tned to agree with this from a management perspective and being an outsider. I also seem to rememer the reason Frontier pilots wanted to go with Republic instead of SWA is because they were afraid of just being offered interviews with SWA. SWA has a history of this, we didn't change our views of SWA when it "could" have happened last time. I think most of you will think I am very wrong, and perhaps I should feel differently but I still can't wrap my head around why SWA management is in the wrong for giving the benefit to the pilots that were already there. If it wasn't ATN it would have been Frontier and the same thing would have happened. I can see why it would be important to maintain good labor relations with both sides but not at the expense of pissing off a bunch of guys who have proven to be an attribute to your company.

Along side with this discussion why didn't any one complain when so many MDW captains were thrown out on the street by republic in the whole Frontier deal.
 
Boo737 said:
Waco, its not about AT, most of the guys on here are ALPA boys, or guys who got turned down by SWA, so they have a ax to grind.
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I thought the most important criterion to get hired at SWA was having a 73 type. Unless you flew T-43s in the AF, or were furloughed with a type, how would you get that type? You would buy it, no? There are a lot of guys that wouldn't do that out of principle. And some regionals actually get to fly out of the US.
Call me contrarian, but SWA would be at the bottom of the list of any place I would want to work, for a long long time. Especially with this cat fight. Good luck to all.
 
kellwolf said:
While I agree with the first part, I don't agree with the second. I don't think "almost every single one" would stay CAs over the money. QoL is a big motivator. We had guys choose to downgrade back to regional FO rather than get bumped out of their base earlier this year. I don't know if ATN was just talking about AirTran or pilots in general. I can't speak to the feelings at AirTran, but I can say it's probably closer to a 40/60 split in Qol vs $$$$ in my experience.
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It's an individual choice. At my stage in my career, being a CA is most important. I commuted to SJU to be a CA. Then I got downgraded. I whined and moaned and complained and was miserable till I upgraded again. My worst day as a CA is better than my best day as an FO. I'm happy now (so is my wife who had to listen to me whine, moan, complain and be miserable).

I wish nothing but the best for all involved in this merger.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Basically, yes. Number 2 could be delayed significantly, with them operating us separately for a while first, but it's clear that the threat is that we'll be out of our jobs eventually.



As was obvious previously, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. There is a difference between an A-Fund pension (a defined benefit plan), and a B-Fund pension (a defined contribution plan). B-Funds cannot be terminated in bankruptcy like A-Funds. The money in a B-Fund is your own money in your own account, just like a 401k. The difference is that you don't have to make a contribution to get the money in a B-Fund. The company just has to contribute, and you only contribute if you want to. In your case with the 401k, you don't get any money if you don't contribute, and if you do contribute, the company contribution is still less than what our contribution is even without us having to put in a dime. I wish you guys would wake up to the benefits of a B-Fund. That could be the next big contract gain that we could make as a combined pilot group.



You obviously aren't factoring in premium pay and other soft time. It's really not that hard for a senior captain to bring in $250k. We had lots of guys breaking $200k under the old contract's pay rates, and we didn't even have premium pay under that contract.



Yeah, that's not a threat. :sarcasm:





None of this is ALPA's fault. Waco can try to paint it that way if he wants, but this has nothing to do with ALPA. This has to do with our pilots making a decision on their own that the risks are too great, and they'd rather take the sure thing than fight for years. ALPA would give us full support whichever way we went, but the decision is ours, not ALPA's.



We first proposed something a little bit less than relative seniority. It was less than relative seniority, because we were attempting to give them credit for their greater number of retirements. They said no. We eventually worked back to a DOH integration with seat protections for our captains. Still no dice with the SWAPA guys. We finally proposed DOH with our captains under the 50% mark losing their seats, which would have been a few hundred guys getting displaced to FO. They wouldn't even agree to look at our proposal. So, we end up where we are, with something far less than DOH.
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ATN I guess everyone's wrong, you're right about everything. The whole worlds against you? As for the B-funded Pension. It's a pension and if that company goes away, your pension may very well go to. If not you will get 10 cents on the dollar. It's not a 401K. The company still owns the money. As for the pay rates, you mean the one you guys voted in after SWA purchased AT? That's a joke. You would have never gotten that had it not been for the purchase, you guys had voted over 90% to strike before SWA came into the picture.
 
Boo737 said:
As for the B-funded Pension. It's a pension and if that company goes away, your pension may very well go to. If not you will get 10 cents on the dollar. It's not a 401K. The company still owns the money.
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Actually. I think you are wrong. The company does not own the money. The employee does. In a bankruptcy, the employee gets 100% of their money. You are right, it's not a 401K, but it is a 415B. During Delta's BK, I lost what was in my defined benefit pension, (A fund.) but my wife kept everything in her defined contribution pension, (B fund.) I certainly hope you are a better pilot than financial consultant. You certainly don't have a career ahead of you as an peace negotiator.
 
I'm glad I don't have a small donger. Saves me a lot of time spent on the Internet telling everyone how much more awesomer I am so I can feel better about myself.
 
Boo737 said:
As for the pay rates, you mean the one you guys voted in after SWA purchased AT? That's a joke. You would have never gotten that had it not been for the purchase, you guys had voted over 90% to strike before SWA came into the picture.
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SWA's next contract time are certainly going to be interesting with a large block of disgruntled pilots in the mix.
 
Orenstein, Herb, Colleen, Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn, Gary Kelly. Doesn't matter what everyone thinks, doesn't matter how "caring" you think a company is, and it doesn't matter that your emotions tell you that it is a "family" - they are all the same and rule based on math and no emotion. I am vindicated now that SWA has ground the ATN pilots to dust.

Another rule of thumb - don't assign human traits like emotions to non-human entities like corporations.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I'm glad I don't have a small donger. Saves me a lot of time spent on the Internet telling everyone how much more awesomer I am so I can feel better about myself.
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Is that why all our FAs love you? :D

BTW, your avatar's epaulettes seem prophetic now!!! (Unless it was a recent modification.)
 
Doug Taylor said:
Incorrect.

Who are you anyway? You really....really really really shouldn't expect much satisfaction from attempting to troll this website. The webmaster is a real •.
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Dude....You can totally say ass on this website.....
 
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