IrishSheepdog
Sitting in the median
Can I get a pitchfork to gouge my eyes out?
AirTran furloughs announced, concessions requested
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Pilots used to do that all the time. In fact, there are more then a few airplanes running around that were bought by pilot donations.
You're right, management giving up some (or all) of their salary WOULD be a concession. However, what I think people are having issues with is management getting bonuses or pay raises in the current environment.
You're right, management giving up some (or all) of their salary WOULD be a concession. However, what I think people are having issues with is management getting bonuses or pay raises in the current environment.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Not just the current environment - any environment where they are sending people to the streets - yet they (management) continue to fund their kiddies trust fund, or the fund for the 5th house.
But yeah - whatever. Perhaps not a direct reason, but a significant indirect reason we find our economy in such #### right now.
But yeah - whatever. Perhaps not a direct reason, but a significant indirect reason we find our economy in such #### right now.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
All true, but we may have lost sight of why a company offers bonuses to employees. A bonus is an incentive that's paid when a certain set of conditions is met. (i.e., longevity, productivity, profitability, etc.) BODs normally offer bonuses/stock options to upper-level management in lieu of a higher base salary. As a stock holder, I would rather see the CEO take a modest salary and stock options that are only worth something if he makes my stock go up than just give him a fat salary even if he tubes the company. Stock options & bonuses are supposed to be the lure to recruit and retain talented management. If the CEO can make the stockholders profit, there's no reason he shouldn't share in the fruits of it. Being a CEO is akin to being a rock star or a pro athlete; very few people have the talent for such work, and those who do are highly compensated.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and unfortunately few, if any, are in current airline management. Yet they're all compensated as though the talent were present.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
It was all making some sense until you got here. If athlete does great then he gets a great paycheck and bonuses, you're right. BUT, if said athlete sucks miserably, what happens? You get sent to the minors or worse, cut. You don't get rewarded when you can't perform.
Example.... If Devin Hester gets so many return yards, he makes a bonus of $400,000 (Made up number to prove a point). But, if Hester only returns the ball for 20 yards in a season, he gets squat-diddly. He'll make his base pay. These airline board memebers and CEO's during the growth, did a ok job, so they should have recieved some of the bonuses, that's fine.
They had no foresight. So now, they return the proverbial ball for a 5 yard loss. How should that be rewarded? It was their LACK of talent that put the airlines in this position to begin with. Want to argue that they couldn't have prevented it? Southwest hedged at $51/bbl for so many % of fuel. Delta $91/bbl for I believe 51% or something. So the fact is there, it could have been somewhat predicted. And these management types deserve a bonus for good performance.
Sorry for the long post but this one kind of struck me as a strange analogy that SHOULD be true but isn't. These guys should be at the minors, which for an airline should be at as gate agents.
.02 cents, /rant
ljg
Well-Known Member
Why would managament force concessions on the pilot group and not be expected to take concessions themselves? I'm sorry but one less trip to the buffet line when you're already fat and happy rich isn't going to make a difference. Furloughed pilots create hungry families. Like PCL said earlier, if his bosses passed on their bonus they could avoid putting 177 people out on the street.
ljg
Well-Known Member
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
That's the only point I was making, but in reverse. I hear a lot of talk about how management should be taking consessions instead of pilots. (As it applies to this thread, forefiting bonuses and stock options that are part of management's compensation package is a consession.) If everybody is willing to give a consession then fine; but labor shouldn't expect it of management (and vice versa) unless they are willing to pony up themselves. When the ship is caught in a storm, everybody needs to row towards shore together.
KLB
Well-Known Member
The million dollar question is:
What's management incentive to improve things if they get bonuses reguardless of the companies' success?
They really have nothing to lose. Thats one of the bigger problems with the airline industry.
I also believe the management should take concessions along with the employees. They are the leaders of the company and it only makes sense to lead by example. It's the ole "if one person is going hungry, everybody should go hungry. If one person has plenty of food, everybody....." or something like that.
What's management incentive to improve things if they get bonuses reguardless of the companies' success?
They really have nothing to lose. Thats one of the bigger problems with the airline industry.
I also believe the management should take concessions along with the employees. They are the leaders of the company and it only makes sense to lead by example. It's the ole "if one person is going hungry, everybody should go hungry. If one person has plenty of food, everybody....." or something like that.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Managements take bonus, pay raises, pension guarantees and stock all the while their employees are furloughed and take concessions. Once again I'll provide examples: Mullin, Arpey, Tilton, Leonard, Segal, Bethune, and Kellner.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There's a difference. The bad financial condition of the companies is the direct fault of poor management. Pilots are still doing their jobs and moving airplanes and people safely from point A to point B, but management has failed in their obligation to run a stable company. My pay shouldn't be cut because of their incompetence. Theirs should.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
If management still get bonuses when their company is bleeding cash and the stock is in a free fall, then the BOD needs to change the targets for those bonuses since they're obviously pretty damn low. What is it? You get a bonus if you ONLY lose $4 million in a quarter? Without the bonus, they may have only lost $3.5 million.
My question is this....do management get bonuses based on the performance of the airline? Do they have a direct affect on that other than memos? Little if any. So, some of those bonuses are gained from the direct hard work of those they are asking to give concessions. For example, your airline has an on-time performance in the 90% range, and management gets a huge bonus. Now, I only fly the airplanes, but it's normally the pilots, rampers, gate agents, mechanics, etc that get those planes out on-time, NOT management. Our CEO tossed three bags on Xmas day and thought he was the second coming of Herb Kelleher. Seems bad ju-ju to take a bonus that you got b/c the people at your company bust their ass day in and day out then say, "We need you to take concessions."
My question is this....do management get bonuses based on the performance of the airline? Do they have a direct affect on that other than memos? Little if any. So, some of those bonuses are gained from the direct hard work of those they are asking to give concessions. For example, your airline has an on-time performance in the 90% range, and management gets a huge bonus. Now, I only fly the airplanes, but it's normally the pilots, rampers, gate agents, mechanics, etc that get those planes out on-time, NOT management. Our CEO tossed three bags on Xmas day and thought he was the second coming of Herb Kelleher. Seems bad ju-ju to take a bonus that you got b/c the people at your company bust their ass day in and day out then say, "We need you to take concessions."
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Some of you guys are sounding like communists. Folks its a free-market economy. With all the competition out there EVERYBODY can't win. There's going to be winners and losers. Just because an airline is struggling doesn't mean incompetent management. It just means they got bested by the competition.
Im sorry but the market does not have room for all these airlines. I don't care if every airline had a SWA-type management staff. Somebody is going down. Pilots have a strong brotherhood but sometimes we forget that our companies are competing against one another for the same passengers. Some will remain strong, some will fall. Thats just the nature of the game.
Now with the bonus thing you guys are right, management should stop shafting the employees when the company is struggling.
Im sorry but the market does not have room for all these airlines. I don't care if every airline had a SWA-type management staff. Somebody is going down. Pilots have a strong brotherhood but sometimes we forget that our companies are competing against one another for the same passengers. Some will remain strong, some will fall. Thats just the nature of the game.
Now with the bonus thing you guys are right, management should stop shafting the employees when the company is struggling.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Marcus,
You have to believe the free market theory to agree that it's a free market economy.
When the majority of the most important raw good to the aviation industry is controlled by a cartel . . . I'm sorry. . .but that's not a free market anything.
Further, no one is saying everyone should win.
What is being said is that the top 5% of wage earners shouldn't be taking bonuses when they are putting people out on the street. Putting people out on the street should be evaluated as a failure of their management principles and policies, they shouldn't be praised for their failures. Which, appears you agree with.
You have to believe the free market theory to agree that it's a free market economy.
When the majority of the most important raw good to the aviation industry is controlled by a cartel . . . I'm sorry. . .but that's not a free market anything.
Further, no one is saying everyone should win.
What is being said is that the top 5% of wage earners shouldn't be taking bonuses when they are putting people out on the street. Putting people out on the street should be evaluated as a failure of their management principles and policies, they shouldn't be praised for their failures. Which, appears you agree with.
