airnow crash

[wheelsup]

Wheelsup. Thanks for confirming the Capt had been at Gulfstream. That was one of my facts. You should cut and paste the part about the F/O, too.

why? The CA has ultimate authority in the airplane and determines the mood of the flight. The FO's history is a moot point.

The CA was the one responsible for this mess.

Funny how you ignored the entire past history of the CA, expect for being at Gulfstream as a street CA (not PFT position BTW).

 

[Dugie8]

Just to add to the ridiculousness of pointing fingers at PFJers.

The PCL Capt went to ERAU, and if I recall correctly had some checkride failures, sooooo

Anyone who went to ERAU and faild a checkride is a dangerous pilot


Come one, come all to UND!


:nana2:

 

[Seggy]

why? The CA has ultimate authority in the airplane and determines the mood of the flight. The FO's history is a moot point.

The CA was the one responsible for this mess.

Funny how you ignored the entire past history of the CA, expect for being at Gulfstream as a street CA (not PFT position BTW).

Violations are handed out in pairs. You work as a crew. If the FO saw the captain acting unprofessionally he could chime in and say something. True the captain is the ultimate authority, but we can chime in as well!

 

[DE727UPS]

"The CA was the one responsible for this mess."

I disagree. A good F/O wouldn't have gone there. They lived and died as a crew.

By the way. I feel like might not be expressing myself about something. As a professional pilot, I'm expected to fly with whoever shows up. Could be a scab. I'd do my job. That's different than having a personal dislike for the person because of the disrespect they showed the career at one time. It wouldn't be hard for me to seperate my personal feelings from the ability to do the job, if that makes sense.

 

[MFT1Air]

"The CA was the one responsible for this mess."

I disagree. A good F/O wouldn't have gone there. They lived and died as a crew.

:yeahthat:

I agree. . .wholeheartedly.

By the way. I feel like might not be expressing myself about something. As a professional pilot, I'm expected to fly with whoever shows up. Could be a scab. I'd do my job. That's different than having a personal dislike for the person because of the disrespect they showed the career at one time. It wouldn't be hard for me to seperate my personal feelings from the ability to do the job, if that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense to me. As you said, it's called professionalism. Regardless of personal feelings, it's still about respecting the business.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

but I would hope a professional would never prejudge or immediately value or degrade anyone based simply upon where they gained an individual their experience. (Kinda like a Harvard law graduate being compared with one who went to Concord School of Law online.)

Well let me ask you something. If you were facing a murder rap with the death sentence on the table. Would you choose the Harvard law grad or a "lawyer" (and I use that term loosely) who graduated and got his license from an online school?

Honest question.

The same could be said for preferring someone who didn't skip directly to the front of the line from multi-comm rated pilot to regional f/o on a turbo-prop.

Because just like if my life was on the line I would prefer to have that Harvard law grad as lead council on my case. Just like if I'm capt on a plane and the world goes to crap I would prefer to have a pilot who didn't take short cuts to get into the cockpit and fly right seat to me.

Not saying all Gulfstream pilots are unsafe just talking preference!

 

[jtrain609]

Well let me ask you something. If you were facing a murder rap with the death sentence on the table. Would you choose the Harvard law grad or a "lawyer" (and I use that term loosely) who graduated and got his license from an online school?

Honest question.

The same could be said for preferring someone who didn't skip directly to the front of the line from multi-comm rated pilot to regional f/o on a turbo-prop.

Because just like if my life was on the line I would prefer to have that Harvard law grad as lead council on my case. Just like if I'm capt on a plane and the world goes to crap I would prefer to have a pilot who didn't take short cuts to get into the cockpit and fly right seat to me.

Not saying all Gulfstream pilots are unsafe just talking preference!

Max just hit it. What many of ya'll that have not instructed don't realized is how much you learn when you're doing so. Simply put I didn't belong in the cockpit of a Beech 1900D or a jet at 250 hours, and I think now at around 700 hours that I MIGHT be able to get by in a turboprop. Ya'll don't realize what these guys are losing during a VERY formative stage of learning how to fly, and by that I mean the first 1,500-2,000 hours.

 

[Seggy]

Another point to be made. If you give a monkey enough bananas they can be trained to fly a 747. Would they be safe to fly a 747, no, could they I am sure with the right training.

Pay For Trainers are 'sheltered' in their training environment. They are trained to fly the Beech safely in ideal conditions. That is it. Throw something else outside of the loop and it could be a very dangerous combination. They have not paid their aviation dues, that thousands did before hand. What happens if a police officer pays for his first job? Think he would be ethical, moral, and a good police officer?

PFT/PFJ guys saw the golden banana and went after that. That golden banana is poison laced.

 

[wheelsup]

Violations are handed out in pairs. You work as a crew. If the FO saw the captain acting unprofessionally he could chime in and say something. True the captain is the ultimate authority, but we can chime in as well!

you are misinformed...I won't get into details but there was a situation where an older BAe guy cum rj driver took a few tries to land, basically a mess. The FO was doing their job, offering advice (per the FOM) but the CA chose to disregard. The plane was met by the FAA.

The CA was later 'asked to resign' but the FO got off scott free. Like you said, all we can do is pipe up, the CA choses what to listen to and what to ignore.

The FO in this case (pinnacle crash) certainly didn't help by NOT speaking up (I'm not arguing the fact that the crew was inmature) but the CA has ultimate responsibility in the operation of the aircraft. Period. The CA chose to take the airplane to 410 and screw around. Was it because he was a street hire CA at gulfstream? Was it because he was a TSA FO? Was it because he was an ERAU grad? Was it because he was an ex-CFI? Was it because he used to tow banners?

 

[derg]

why? The CA has ultimate authority in the airplane and determines the mood of the flight. The FO's history is a moot point.

The CA was the one responsible for this mess.

Funny how you ignored the entire past history of the CA, expect for being at Gulfstream as a street CA (not PFT position BTW).

Actually no.

The captain is the ultimate resonsibility yes, but it's the FO's responsibility to provide a check-valve for the captains decision making.

The CA should have known that he didn't have the performance to reach the altitude. Whether or not the book or the FMS said he could (I don't remember), the captain should have recognized the lack of engine and aircraft performance and got out of the situation.

The FO should have recognized that the captain was making a fatal decision. He's not just there to swing gear and if he didn't have the background or the cajones to say "Captain, I'm uncomfortable, we need to forget about '4-1-0'ing it' and descend" he has no business being second-in-command.

The FAA issues all part-121 violations in pairs for a reason.

 

[wheelsup]

He's not just there to swing gear and if he didn't have the background or the cajones to say "Captain, I'm uncomfortable, we need to forget about '4-1-0'ing it' and descend" he has no business being second-in-command.

I agree with that. I think it was more of not having the 'cajones' than anything else - even a monkey can tell you when the freaking stick pusher goes off to pitch the nose down.

I'm not debating whether the FO did or didn't do what a 'normal' FO would have done. I think we can all see he didn't chose the "right" thing to do. Was it the gulfstream mentality that did that? That I could agree with.

But I won't agree that a CA, with 6700+ hours, 1800 PIC 121, a 4-year degree from ERAU, and past employment history with multiple aviation jobs that shows he "worked his way up" did what he did because he went to gulfstream. How you can make that connection is beyond me. It's purely circumstancial in my eyes.

 

[MFT1Air]

Well let me ask you something. If you were facing a murder rap with the death sentence on the table. Would you choose the Harvard law grad or a "lawyer" (and I use that term loosely) who graduated and got his license from an online school?

Honest question.

The same could be said for preferring someone who didn't skip directly to the front of the line from multi-comm rated pilot to regional f/o on a turbo-prop.

Because just like if my life was on the line I would prefer to have that Harvard law grad as lead council on my case. Just like if I'm capt on a plane and the world goes to crap I would prefer to have a pilot who didn't take short cuts to get into the cockpit and fly right seat to me.

Not saying all Gulfstream pilots are unsafe just talking preference!

I love your question, for it begs more additional questions be asked to determine the person's total capability and experience to handle a situation. Did the person squeak through Harvard partying and barely making it through as opposed to doing it online while perhaps working somewhere as a legal aide, paralegal, or for some volunteer civil right's group that handled cases such as mine? Nope, the person didn't get what might be perceived as a "quality" education by some, but they did receive "real life" experience via the online method which makes them better prepared to handle the real world experience.

Honestly Max, I can't say. Education and experience are the best teachers, and I take all that into consideration before rendering judgement.

. . .and you're absolutely right. I can speak from personal experience, for back in the old days, as a Vietnam vet, the military incorporated the "90 day wonder" officers and sergeants who "short cut" their way to leadership shortages. Like previously mentioned before, a "background check" was performed to determine how they acquired their rank, and yes-if it was a short cut, you were immediately labelled as a potential risk to life and limb by others, but most were given a chance. Most passed; some failed, but it was the whole person we considered most rather than how they got there.

 

[MFT1Air]

The FO should have recognized that the captain was making a fatal decision. He's not just there to swing gear and if he didn't have the background or the cajones to say "Captain, I'm uncomfortable, we need to forget about '4-1-0'ing it' and descend" he has no business being second-in-command.

:yeahthat:

Been a good thread, I'm trying to reach 100 posts. :nana2:

 

[DE727UPS]

"I'm not debating whether the FO did or didn't do what a 'normal' FO would have done. I think we can all see he didn't chose the "right" thing to do. Was it the gulfstream mentality that did that? That I could agree with."

Wow, I think you just said the Gulfstream mentality is unsafe. Sure you didn't mean it that way.

"Been a good thread, I'm trying to reach 100 posts"

So, MFT, what are your goals in aviation?

 

[Looking4Lower]

If you give a monkey enough bananas they can be trained to fly a 747. Would they be safe to fly a 747, no, could they I am sure with the right training.

According to the primate lab's records, it took me 9,542 bananas before I was finally fully trained on the Lear. A buddy of mine, Mr. Chimpsworth, in the next cage learned to fly the 747 but the training took longer and he went thru about 17,000+ bananas before he was signed off. He's much fatter then me. I think I am considered safe, but sometimes when things don't go my way I start screeching and I fling poo in the cockpit (My copilot gets irritated about that).

 

[Seggy]

Honestly Max, I can't say. Education and experience are the best teachers, and I take all that into consideration before rendering judgement.

EXACTLY! When you have to buy your education and experience in a form of Gulfstream, were does that leave you?

 

[MFT1Air]

"I'm not debating whether the FO did or didn't do what a 'normal' FO would have done. I think we can all see he didn't chose the "right" thing to do. Was it the gulfstream mentality that did that? That I could agree with."

Wow, I think you just said the Gulfstream mentality is unsafe. Sure you didn't mean it that way.

"Been a good thread, I'm trying to reach 100 posts"

So, MFT, what are your goals in aviation?

I am strictly a general aviation kinda guy. I'll leave all the professional flying to you all.

I'll slowly but surely gain proficiency in flying. Have my eye on 1/5th ownership of a Piper Meridian, so that's the extent of my experience or aviation desire. I'll work to be as proficient as possible to achieve as many certifications as possible, but that's about it. One advantage I see with Gulfstream? They fly the Carribean. I like that too, so if I get the Meridian, I can get there on my own.

I'm also interested in managing one of the local airports; I also wish to do the Angel Flights, but I wish to own my personal aircraft, so that's about it for me.

 

[wheelsup]

Wow, I think you just said the Gulfstream mentality is unsafe. Sure you didn't mean it that way.

I can see where the mentality of buying your time can shelter an unsafe mentality (it lets the otherwise unemployable obtain 121 training). The captain did none of the sort, and neither did countless crews involved in countless crashess around the country for the past two decades, military and civilian trained.

People PFT'd to work for COEX and Comair and their planes haven't fallen out of the sky - so again your connection is meaningless IMO. If you look at just this one accident, one could infer having gulfstream in your background is a bad thing, but when you widen the view and look you see it's not really a factor.

P.S. As posted on here at an earlier date, the answer to the ice cream puzzle is that in the summer, more ice cream is sold. Also, more people are swimming thus greater chance to drown. The fact that there are more ice cream sales in the summer has nothing to do with more drownings, it's just a circumstantial fact. Much like your connection with having gulfstream on your resume = unsafe and incapable pilots.