airnow crash

jtrain609 said:
If you're so uninformed that you buy your job what makes you think that you can brief an approach correctly? It seems like a strech but seriously, if you're that short sighted I really don't know what these people are doing in an airplane that's moving along at 140 knots inside the marker.
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one of the brightest pilots I've met bought his "job" via a type rating. he was a nuclear propulsion tech in the navy on subs, and used the government GI bill to pay for most of it.

another, an ex-marine, used the government GI bill to pay for most of the gulfstream program.

I'm sorry, these guys have to pass the same standards that everyone else does when they get hired at a 'real' (ie non PFT) organization.

You never answered the previous question, but I'm directing it at you now. If gulfstream pilots are so unsafe, why aren't there ANY accidents involving pilot error (not mx issues) while working there?
 
BULL said:
While I agree with almost all of the previous postings, let us not forget why the post was started in the first place. RIP to the AirNow driver. My heart goes out to his family and friends.
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amen.
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Guys, hey :yeahthat: . No need to point fingers at who paid for what and who did who with what money none of us have. None of us died and we weren't in that cockpit so we can't say we have a clue as to what may or may not have happened. Let the man rest in peace. We may not know him, but as aviators we owe our own that much.
 
MFT1Air said:
You're absolutely right. None of OUR families were onboard, but here's the hypothetical . . .what if the captain's wife or the co-pilot's family were aviation enthusiasts who read this forum? What would THEY deduce from this thread?
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I'll give the most honest answer possible.

When it comes to reading an NTSB report and reacting to it, it's man versus environment versus machine. You've really got to leave emotion out of it.

It's pilots talking to pilots.

Break it down to the facts, causal factors, what happened, when it happened and why it happened.

That's how we live. That's how we'll survive.

Someone you know on this website, perhaps even multiple people are going to die in an airplane crash. It's statistically impossible for it NOT to occur, but since we're pilots, we need to learn.

Now the following is an entirely seperate issue:

Next time you fly commercial, are you going to query the pilot if they PFT/PFJ'd for Gulfstream? If so, I'd be curious if you receive a refund. :)
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In professional aviation, people will feel you out the second you step into the cockpit. I don't think I've done a rotation yet without the captain asking in the first few sentences after the introduction, "So what's your background? Military? Civilian?"

I can pretty much tell you that if I told a captain that i went to Gulfstream for 500 hours, then miraculously got hired by my airline, I'd have a level of scrutiny that I couldn't fathom?

Is it right? I dunno.

Is it valid? I dunno.

But it happens.

At the bottom of the rotation where it lists your captains, there's a line that says:

A 123456 DOE, JOHN FITZGERALD
Time for ROTS Completed: PIC-056:41 737A-056:41 737B-0:00

B 456123 BOBB, JIMMY JOE
Time for ROTS Completed: 737B-GT300

(GT = "Greater Than")
(A = Captain B=FO)
(ROTS = Rotations or trips)

Why is that there? Currency? High mins?! Showing you the basic experience level of the person you're going to be flying with in order to incorporate that into the pre-flight brief?
 
Wheelsup. The way you defend MAPD and Gulfstream, my hope for you is to be a Capt at XJT (I think that's where you F/O at) that gets to fly with 300 hour F/O's fresh out of IOE until you puke.

I just had lunch with a new Mesa Dash Capt. He's flown with one 350 hour MAPDer and he said it wasn't pretty. Maybe the next one will do better.

I've noticed your pretty excited about how great the concept of ab initio is. May you reap what you sow....
 
wheelsup said:
If gulfstream pilots are so unsafe, why aren't there ANY accidents involving pilot error (not mx issues) while working there?
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That is a fair question. They are flying a forgiving airplane in a relatively easy environement. They go between the same airports day after day and understand the way things flow on those segments. Their training is tailored for that.

However, introduce something they are not used to, and see if they can think outside of the box.
 
Doug Taylor said:
In professional aviation, people will feel you out the second you step into the cockpit. I don't think I've done a rotation yet without the captain asking in the first few sentences after the introduction, "So what's your background? Military? Civilian?"

I can pretty much tell you that if I told a captain that i went to Gulfstream for 500 hours, then miraculously got hired by my airline, I'd have a level of scrutiny that I couldn't fathom?

Is it right? I dunno.

Is it valid? I dunno.

But it happens.

At the bottom of the rotation where it lists your captains, there's a line that says:

A 123456 DOE, JOHN FITZGERALD
Time for ROTS Completed: PIC-056:41 737A-056:41 737B-0:00

B 456123 BOBB, JIMMY JOE
Time for ROTS Completed: 737B-GT300

(GT = "Greater Than")
(A = Captain B=FO)
(ROTS = Rotations or trips)

Why is that there? Currency? High mins?! Showing you the basic experience level of the person you're going to be flying with in order to incorporate that into the pre-flight brief?
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Excellent words. Thanks. Your professional insight and experience is very much appreciated.

Lastly, RIP to the lost pilots and my condolences to their families.
 
DE727UPS said:
Wheelsup. The way you defend MAPD and Gulfstream, my hope for you is to be a Capt at XJT (I think that's where you F/O at) that gets to fly with 300 hour F/O's fresh out of IOE until you puke.

I just had lunch with a new Mesa Dash Capt. He's flown with one 350 hour MAPDer and he said it wasn't pretty. Maybe the next one will do better.

I've noticed your pretty excited about how great the concept of ab initio is. May you reap what you sow....
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"new mesa dash CA"

well considering the company was hiring some off the street with mins of 1500/350 multi, I wouldn't put much stock in "it wasn't pretty". Chances are they didn't have too much experience either.

Also chances are the CA's that I flew with after OE said "it wasn't pretty". I'm not a superpilot, the airplane is a tough plane to fly after coming from CFI'ing IMO. But I did make it thru, and I'm still here. They company did let one go from my class several months after OE.

I'm not trying to defend buying a job programs, but to say that because someone did one of those programs they will cause an accident in the future is just proposterous IMO. It even borders on slander.
 
"I wouldn't put much stock in "it wasn't pretty". Chances are they didn't have too much experience either."

He's been on the Dash in the right seat for two years before upgrading, nice try though...

My "it wasn't pretty" comment was a paraphrase on a five minute discussion about his only experience with a MAPDer. Bog's also talked about his feelings on MAPDers. You've never been a 121 Capt and you don't work there. I'm not swayed by your opinions on MAPD though you have way more credibility than a guy like Cherokee in this regard.

FACT: The Capt on PCL3701 had worked for Gulfstream
FACT: The F/O on PCL3701 came from the Gulfstream PFJ program.
FACT: This crew displayed a major lack of discipline and professionalism in the cockpit.

You can draw your own conclusions as to whether the previous backgrounds of this crew had a bearing on the accident. It's opinion either way you go.
 
DE727UPS said:
FACT: The Capt on PCL3701 had worked for Gulfstream
FACT: The F/O on PCL3701 came from the Gulfstream PFJ program.
FACT: This crew displayed a major lack of discipline and professionalism in the cockpit.

You can draw your own conclusions as to whether the previous backgrounds of this crew had a bearing on the accident. It's opinion either way you go.
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Well there you have it folks. If one was previously involved in Gulfstream Airlines in any way shape or form you will obviously end up in a smoking hole somewhere down the line!

:sarcasm:
 
"If one was previously involved in Gulfstream Airlines in any way shape or form you will obviously end up in a smoking hole somewhere down the line!"

That would be your opinion, not a fact.
 
DE727UPS said:
That would be your opinion, not a fact.
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No, that would be YOUR opinion. And you are insinuating that it's a fact (by the FACT: blah blah blah that you posted earlier).

It's such a stretch it's like saying ice cream causes drownings:

FACT: There are more drownings when ice cream sales increase, and less when ice cream sales decrease.
FACT: Ice cream causes drownings.

See what I mean?
 
"And you are insinuating that it's a fact (by the FACT: blah blah blah that you posted earlier)."

Are you saying the FACTS I posted earlier are not factual? What is it you take issue with? I could go back an quote the NSTB records if you'd like. Read the transcript. Or do you not think switching seats and playing games with the jet is unprofessional?

While your ice cream analogy leaves me shaking my head in confusion, it sure does sound good.
 
Seggy said:
That is a fair question. They are flying a forgiving airplane in a relatively easy environement. They go between the same airports day after day and understand the way things flow on those segments. Their training is tailored for that.

However, introduce something they are not used to, and see if they can think outside of the box.
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Let's see here. . .I don't narrow that scope of thought to ANY flight school. I believe it's systemic to all educational systems. Remember that, thoughout our academic system of education, in previous years, we were to "stay between the lines. The lines are your friend" mentality. Only lately has our educational system begun to change the philosophy to make us become more creative in our thought process.

I closed my comments with this thread regarding what Doug Taylor brought out as an interesting perspective about empathy.

In professional aviation, people will feel you out the second you step into the cockpit. I don't think I've done a rotation yet without the captain asking in the first few sentences after the introduction, "So what's your background? Military? Civilian?"

I can pretty much tell you that if I told a captain that i went to Gulfstream for 500 hours, then miraculously got hired by my airline, I'd have a level of scrutiny that I couldn't fathom?
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As I do understand the perspective of a PFT/PFJ with respect to professionalism amongst the F/O ranks, where I take a position towards contradiction is:

Well, firstly. . .and I'm using this hypothetical position strictly as an example, for I know it'll NEVER happen:

FACT: The Capt (insert DE727UPS) on PCL3701 had worked for Gulfstream
FACT: The F/O (insert surreal1221) on PCL3701 came from the Gulfstream PFJ program.

Conclusion: This crew will lack major discipline and professionalism in the cockpit because they were poorly trained by the Gulfstream program.:argue:

Perhaps an exaggerated example, for even if you two had the money to throw away back when you were all younger, your professional ethics would have deferred you away from the PFT/PFJ program, but still - if you did. . .I myself would feel disrespected if someone prematurely judged me not on my flying prowess, but on my employer.

I don't feel compelled to draw that conclusion nor do I believe anyone else should. As Doug said, there would be considerable scrutiny, but I would hope a professional would never prejudge or immediately value or degrade anyone based simply upon where they gained an individual their experience. (Kinda like a Harvard law graduate being compared with one who went to Concord School of Law online.)

. . .but then, I try to be optimistic, for as DE727UPS wrote from a previous thread that I believe is most applicable, in my opinion:

Your preparedness for a regional has a lot more to do with your hours, experience, ratings, background, and networking than it does with what flight school you went to.
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What I believe from all this is that Gulfstream is simply a "glorified" PFT F/O flight school than a real job.
 
DE727UPS said:
"And you are insinuating that it's a fact (by the FACT: blah blah blah that you posted earlier)."

Are you saying the FACTS I posted earlier are not factual? What is it you take issue with? I could go back an quote the NSTB records if you'd like. Read the transcript. Or do you not think switching seats and playing games with the jet is unprofessional?

While your ice cream analogy leaves me shaking my head in confusion, it sure does sound good.
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OK here are the FACTS:

The captain, age 31, held a first class medical certificate issued July 22, 2004, with the limitation “Holder must wear corrective lenses.” The captain reported 6,750 hours total pilot time with 400 accumulated in the past 6 months on the medical application. A search of records at the National Driver Register found no history of driver’s license revocation or suspension.

The captain graduated high school in the spring of 1990. From August 1990 to May 1995 the captain attended Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in FL and graduated with a bachelor of science degree in aeronautical science. According to an application for employment dated September 16, 2002, he worked briefly in a non-aviation job from March to May 1996. The application listed the following aviation positions held: glider tow pilot for Island Soaring in Maine, from May 1996 to August 1996; flight instructor for Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University from August 1996 to October 1999; first officer at Trans States Airlines from January 1999 to May 2000; and captain at Gulfstream International Airlines, Inc. in FL, from June 2000 to September 2002.

The captain’s resume in his personnel file stated total flight time of 5,685 hours, including 1,724 hours as pilot-in-command under 14 CFR Part 121 operations. The resume listed “FAA High Altitude Physiological Training” as one of the items under the heading Certificates & Ratings.
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So, while we're blaming gulfstream, let's also correlate this new knowledge. According to you, if you have previously:
  • Attended ERAU
  • Flown glider tow planes
  • Flight Instructed for ERAU
  • Worked for TSA as a pilot
  • Worked for Gulfstream as a pilot
You will end up a smoking hole. See how rediculous your connection is? This accident has nothing to do with where these people were previously employed.

Mr. UPS, didn't you attend ERAU?
 
"but I would hope a professional would never prejudge or immediately value or degrade anyone based simply upon where they gained an individual their experience"

Well, you hoped wrong. Welcome to the airlines...

Scabs and guys who did the Gulfstream PFJ program: I'd "prejudge and degrade". Both made bad choices which I'd like to see follow them around their careers in one form or another. Not sure how I'll handle it if I ever meet one in real life. There's two Gulfstream guys that used to post here that admitted it was a mistake and wouldn't do it again. If they admit they made a mistake it goes a long ways with me. Even a scab.

MAPD, FSA direct track, ab initio: I don't like the idea for the reasons you all know already. No "prejudge or degrade" necessary if I ever meet one in real life. Would try and find out why they went that route and if they would do it over, if they still think it's a good idea. Makes for interesting converstation.

Hope you understand now. That's just me but I think you'll find that nobody likes scabs and most people don't like Gulfstream PFJ. That this dislike would not carry over to prejudice in the cockpit is asking way to much of human nature.

By the way MFT, you looked at the FACTS and drew a conclusion about my opinion. The FACTS stand for themselves. A conclusion or opinion about the facts is yours to have and mine to have. Nowhere did I say PCL3701 crashed because of Gulfstream. That's not even my opinion. I do, however, find it interesting that both those guys were at Gulfstream at one time.
 
Wheelsup. Thanks for confirming the Capt had been at Gulfstream. That was one of my facts. You should cut and paste the part about the F/O, too.
 
FACT: DE727UPS does not like Gulfstream aviators or PFT/PFJ programs.

:yeahthat:

We are in agreement with the aforementioned statement. I'm fairly confident about that. ;)
 
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