Airmet zulu, sierra, and tango

[butt]

When I was a student in a 141 program, I remember just about every single phase check written test I took has this one question on it. That question was "name the three types of Airmets, and what each one is for". The answer is Zulu for ising, Tango for turbulence, and sierra for mountain obscuration and IFR conditions. I even remember being asked it in all 5 of my orals (Private, Instrument, commercial, CFI, CFII, don't think it was asked on multi).

Seriously, why is this such an important thing to know? If you use duats, it says right on it what it's for: "Airmet Tango, 13 OCT 2007 1345Z for severe turbulence" When you're checking airmets, you're on the ground, aren't you? If you don't know what it means, can't you just google it or something?

It has always seemed odd to me that that question always seemed to pop up all the time. Is this a hold over from the days when Tango, Zulu and Sierra were somehow transmitted in a way that made their purpose not obvious? Has anyone ever encountered a situation where they had to actually know what each one was?

To me, it's just a pointless question thats easy to ask, and easy to say whether it's wrong or not, but has no real value. It's like asking what the fifth item listed on a METAR? All METARS list the information in the same order, station, time, wind, etc. Is the fifth one visibility, or sky condition? How does it matter?

 

[mikecweb]

Google hasn't been around forever and neither has DUATS.
Why do we have to know anything if we can just google it.

 

[moxiepilot]

Why do we need to know pilotage?

Why do we need to know how to use a VOR?

Why do we need to know what windshear is?

The more knowledge you have the more compitent you are.

 

[jrh]

Ok, I'll buck the trend...

You probably don't need to know it. You're right, it's minutia that doesn't matter much in the real world. I can't think of any situation where this particular knowledge matters.

There. I said it.

As for the history of where those designators came from, I don't know. Good question though. Might have been from using morse code to transmit weather data over long distances back in the day or something.

 

[jrh]

Why do we need to know pilotage?

Why do we need to know how to use a VOR?

Why do we need to know what windshear is?

Come on moxie, you're a reasonable guy. Don't you think this is sort of comparing apples to oranges?

All of the things you listed have a direct impact on safety. If a pilot didn't know those things, he could end up lost, run out of fuel, slam in to the ground while trying to land in a thunderstorm, etc...that's a BIG deal.

I don't see any correlation between those things and knowing about phonetic alphabet designators for AIRMETs.

It's like the examiner on my instrument checkride wanting me to know the frequencies for each lobe of a localizer beam...what are they...90 hz and 150 hz? I learned it for my checkride, and I've even seen it published in the AIM, but I still have no clue why it matters. Let's face it, there's no use for some knowledge.

The more knowledge you have the more compitent you are.

That's debateable.

 

[moxiepilot]

I think that perhaps I was approaching the question from a different angle than possibly was posed (misinterpretation?)

What I assumed was asked was "what are the three types of airmets (not their designators), and why are they important?"

Do I think it is important to know that airmet tango is for turbulence? Not really, it can be an ambiguious designation which could have been named Weather One for all sake and purposes.

But, do I think that it is important to know that airmet Sierra indicates IFR Mtn. obscuration? Absolutely. The reason...avoiding a CFIT accident.

 

[derg]

And this is all from my perspective.

Seriously, why is this such an important thing to know?

Because you use them on a daily basis.

Tangos are good because you need to know when to anticipate turbulence along your route of flight so you can avoid it or give your flight attendants a heads up when it's going to get rough.[/quote]

If you use duats, it says right on it what it's for: "Airmet Tango, 13 OCT 2007 1345Z for severe turbulence" When you're checking airmets, you're on the ground, aren't you? If you don't know what it means, can't you just google it or something?

I don't DUAT! AIRMETs often get forwarded to you in flight from your dispatcher. No google in the aircraft nor do all pilots who need to disseminate that information have internet access.

To me, it's just a pointless question thats easy to ask, and easy to say whether it's wrong or not, but has no real value. It's like asking what the fifth item listed on a METAR? All METARS list the information in the same order, station, time, wind, etc. Is the fifth one visibility, or sky condition? How does it matter?

This is largely just a philosophical guess but if you don't know what's supposed to be in a report, how do you know if it's a complete report or not? Remember, we check, cross-check and cross-reference in the aviation biz.

 

[jrh]

Ok, after re-reading the original post, I'm not sure what butt is asking.

If he's asking about the importance of understanding AIRMETs, in *general*, then I'd say it's critically important. Pilots have to know what's out there.

If he's asking about the importance of knowing AIRMET *designators* then I'd say it's pointless. I've never seen a use for those phonetic alphabet designators.

 

[butt]

Ok, after re-reading the original post, I'm not sure what butt is asking.

If he's asking about the importance of understanding AIRMETs, in *general*, then I'd say it's critically important. Pilots have to know what's out there.

If he's asking about the importance of knowing AIRMET *designators* then I'd say it's pointless. I've never seen a use for those phonetic alphabet designators.

Just the designator. I never meant to say that Airmets are not important, just making someone know the identifier.

When I was doing my training, all I knew about Airmets was what each letter mean. If you were to show me an Airmet, I couldn't for the life of me tell you what was going on, but if I knew it was an Airmet Tango, I sure could tell you it was for turbulence. I got my ratings in an area that had generally good weather, and I don't think a single airmet was ever issued.


Here is a printout of a few raw text (undecoded) Airmets from duats:

SFOS WA 151445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 3 FOR IFR AND MTN OBSCN VALID UNTIL 152100
.
AIRMET IFR...WA OR CA AND CSTL WTRS
FROM 20N TOU TO 50SSE HQM TO 30S ONP TO 60SSE OED TO FOT TO 20NE
ENI TO 30SW SAC TO 150WSW RZS TO 130WSW SNS TO 140WSW FOT TO
110WNW ONP TO 140W TOU TO 20N TOU
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM PCPN/BR/FG/HZ. CONDS OVR LAND CA OR ENDG
19-21Z. ELSW CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.
.
AIRMET IFR...CA
FROM 50S RBL TO 50NNE SAC TO 20NNE MOD TO 50NE EHF TO 30SSE EHF
TO 30E OAK TO 50S RBL
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM BR/FG/HZ. CONDS ENDG 17-19Z.
.
....
SLCS WA 151445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 2 FOR IFR AND MTN OBSCN VALID UNTIL 152100
.
NO SGFNT IFR EXP OUTSIDE OF CNVTV ACT.
.
AIRMET MTN OBSCN...ID MT WA OR CA
FROM BLI TO 50S YQL TO LWT TO DNJ TO LKV TO FOT TO HQM TO TOU TO
BLI
MTNS OCNL OBSC BY CLDS/PCPN/BR/FG. CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.
....
CHIS WA 151445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 2 FOR IFR VALID UNTIL 152100
.
AIRMET IFR...WI LM LS MI LH IN
FROM 50NNE SAW TO SSM TO 30E ASP TO 20SE FWA TO 30W GIJ TO TVC
TO 70NNW RHI TO 50NNE SAW
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM PCPN. CONDS ENDG 18-21Z.
....
BOSS WA 151445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 3 FOR IFR AND MTN OBSCN VALID UNTIL 152100
.
AIRMET IFR...ME NH VT MA RI CT NY NJ PA WV MD DC DE VA AND CSTL
WTRS
FROM 70NW PQI TO 30NNE PQI TO 50WSW YSJ TO 60E BOS TO 30WSW CYN
TO 30SSW SBY TO 30SSW RIC TO 40SE EWC TO 30SSW ERI TO SYR TO
20ENE MSS TO YSC TO 70NW PQI
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM PCPN/BR/FG. CONDS ENDG SW PTN 17-18Z.
CONDS CONTG NE PTN BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.
.
AIRMET MTN OBSCN...ME NH VT MA NY PA WV MD VA
FROM 70NW PQI TO HUL TO CON TO HAR TO 40SSE PSK TO HMV TO HNN TO
20SW JHW TO SYR TO MSS TO YSC TO 70NW PQI
MTNS OCNL OBSC BY CLDS/PCPN/BR/FG. CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.
.
OTLK VALID 2100-0300Z...IFR NY LO PA OH LE WV
BOUNDED BY MSS-40ESE SYR-40ESE EWC-APE-30SSE DXO-20W BUF-MSS
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM PCPN/BR/FG. CONDS DVLPG NR 21Z AND CONT
THRU 03Z.
....
MIAS WA 151445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 3 FOR IFR VALID UNTIL 152100
.
NO SGFNT IFR EXP OUTSIDE CNVTV ACT.
....
 
SFOT WA 151445
AIRMET TANGO UPDT 2 FOR TURB VALID UNTIL 152100
.
AIRMET TURB...WA OR CA ID MT WY CO AND CSTL WTRS
FROM 30W YXC TO 70S YYN TO MLS TO DEN TO DBL TO DBS TO LKV TO
140WSW FOT TO 110WNW ONP TO 140W TOU TO BLI TO 60W YXC TO 30W YXC
MOD TURB BLW FL180. CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.

If you were to remove the words "sierra", "tango", and "zulu" from these reports, no one should have trouble figuring out what they mean. The reason I made this thread was because it's such a ubiquitous question amongst examiners and instructors, which gives you the impression that it's a really important thing to know. But if you actually think about it, it's not.

I taught my students to find the words "for ice and freezing level", "for turbulence", and "for IFR and mountain obscuration" in the text of the report to know what the Airmet is about. I never even bothered to make them rote memorize the identifiers, because I didn't see a point. Theres enough rote crap you have to memorize for a checkride, why add to it? One of them failed because he was asked straight up "what does airmet tango mean", and couldn't give an answer.

Doesn't this bother anybody else?

 

[surreal1221]

No, it doesn't bother me. . .but I do see what you're saying.

A lot of people in the aviation biz, especially high on themselves instructors and examiners like these types of debates / questions.

If an applicant aces everything else, those types of individuals can use an applicants lack of knowledge in regards to knowing what zulu, sierra and tango stand for to bust an applicant.

Unfortunately, we can not rid those individuals.

Obviously though, knowing that these weather products are available is crucial and more importantly knowing when to make the right go/no-go decision based off of the information they provide should be the number one priority. . .not what zulu, tango, or sierra mean.

 

[derg]

I pretty much see it like this.

I haven't done eights on pylon EVER while performing my duties as a professional pilot (other than demonstrating it for a student).

The FAA wanted me to be proficient in eights on pylons in order to demonstrate my ability to perform to commercial-airplane practical test standards.

A little less time wondering and a little more time doing my friend!

 

[butt]

I pretty much see it like this.

I haven't done eights on pylon EVER while performing my duties as a professional pilot (other than demonstrating it for a student).

Apples and oranges. You're referring to a useless maneuver that requires useful skills, I'm referring to useless knowledge that requires no useful skill to obtain.

Can you name each item of a METAR in order without looking at one? Do you think such a skill is worth learning? Could it in any way be beneficial to one's career?

 

[derg]

I'm not trying to be cold, but if you want the rating, just spend more time learning it.

You'll come across a litany of situations where having to regurgitate certain information doesn't make much sense, but if it's between where you are now and your intended goal, you're just going to have to deal with it until the curriculum changes.

Here's a good example. I know how to arm a 757 and a 767 door. I can tell if it's armed, tell if it's disarmed, I can even tell you when to arm it, when I don't have to and every combination.

But annually, if I can't specifically say, absolutely VERBATIM:

(say it with me now, MDPilot, B767Driver, Staplegun and FlyingSig):

"Entry door evacuation slide systems must be armed and engagement of the girt bar with door sill verified prior to taxi, takeoff, or landing whenever passengers are carried"...

... it's an unsat on my oral evaluation and the feds say you must know all limitations and immediate action items cold.

That makes no sense to me at all about the doors. But if I want to keep my ER job, it's something I have to regurgitate once per year.

Kinda see what I'm getting at?

 

[jrh]

That makes no sense to me at all about the doors. But if I want to keep my ER job, it's something I have to regurgitate once per year.

Kinda see what I'm getting at?

I see what you're getting at, but that doesn't make it right.

There is all kinds of useless junk that professional pilots have to learn, but the thing is, I don't see why that useless junk should still apply to pilots who have no interest in flying professionally. It's one thing to say, "That's just the way the game is played," except not everybody wants to play the game.

Butt said he had to learn it for the private and instrument checkrides...those aren't pro level checkrides. There's no reason to hassle with minutia like this at that level.

All I can say is that when I'm an examiner some day, there won't be any BS on my checkrides.

 

[ctab5060X]

Here is something to chew on...

Seems everyone here is talk about not needing these designators for pre-flight planning and briefings, but what about in-flight advisories? How many times have we all heard ATC advise aircraft in their sector of certain AIRMETs valid for certain states. Especially if it is a new issue and concerns my location or soon to be location.

To me, it is kinda nice to know what ATC is referring to without having to look it up. Besides, the designators are not that hard to remember:

Zulu - Z is the last letter, the last place I want to be is in ice...
Tango - T is for turbulence...
Sierra - S is for "soup"

 

[ctab5060X]

I see what you're getting at, but that doesn't make it right.

There is all kinds of useless junk that professional pilots have to learn, but the thing is, I don't see why that useless junk should still apply to pilots who have no interest in flying professionally. It's one thing to say, "That's just the way the game is played," except not everybody wants to play the game.

Butt said he had to learn it for the private and instrument checkrides...those aren't pro level checkrides. There's no reason to hassle with minutia like this at that level.

All I can say is that when I'm an examiner some day, there won't be any BS on my checkrides.

What is an AIRMET?

Straight out of Everything Explained...(I did highlight on item though)

AIRman's METeorological Information

"Weather of interest to all aircraft but potentially hazardous to aircraft having limited capabilities or to non-instrument rated pilots"

I am glad examiners are asking these kinds of questions. Not only is it basic pilot knowledge and understanding of weather reports, but it is so simple to remember...

 

[jrh]

What is an AIRMET?

Nobody is questioning the importance of using AIRMETs.

out of Everything Explained...(I did highlight on item though)

AIRman's METeorological Information

"Weather of interest to all aircraft but potentially hazardous to aircraft having limited capabilities or to non-instrument rated pilots"

Of course they apply to all pilots, regardless of ratings. But that doesn't mean every pilot has to know every single little detail of every report.

am glad examiners are asking these kinds of questions. Not only is it basic pilot knowledge and understanding of weather reports, but it is so simple to remember...

Basic pilot knowledge? I don't know about that. Go ask ten pilots what "zulu" AIRMETs are referring to and I'd be impressed if more than three of them knew.

Honestly, until this thread started, I never paid attention to the designators. I just read the weather reports. I've never been tested over these designators, nor have I ever heard pilots refer to them. It's not like I hang around in pilot lounges and hear pilots saying, "Geeze Joe, I'm not sure if I can make this trip, there's a big Sierra AIRMET out right now."

My goodness, I can't believe I haven't killed myself yet, lacking this basic knowledge...

 

[ctab5060X]

Basic pilot knowledge? I don't know about that. Go ask ten pilots what "zulu" AIRMETs are referring to and I'd be impressed if more than three of them knew.

Honestly, until this thread started, I never paid attention to the designators. I just read the weather reports. I've never been tested over these designators, nor have I ever heard pilots refer to them. It's not like I hang around in pilot lounges and hear pilots saying, "Geeze Joe, I'm not sure if I can make this trip, there's a big Sierra AIRMET out right now."

My goodness, I can't believe I haven't killed myself yet, lacking this basic knowledge...

If I ruffled your feathers a bit, I appologize, it wasn't my intention. Guess what I am saying by 'basic' knowledge is that this is an item learned/taught at the private pilot level, not an advanced license or rating. That is also why I think it is important to know because with a new private certificate, you don't have the experience of the "professional" pilots therefore you need as much knowledge as possible to try and stay as safe as possible.

Anyway, to each his own...at least we can all agree to disagree

 

[mikecweb]

Nobody is questioning the importance of using AIRMETs.



Of course they apply to all pilots, regardless of ratings. But that doesn't mean every pilot has to know every single little detail of every report.



Basic pilot knowledge? I don't know about that. Go ask ten pilots what "zulu" AIRMETs are referring to and I'd be impressed if more than three of them knew.

Honestly, until this thread started, I never paid attention to the designators. I just read the weather reports. I've never been tested over these designators, nor have I ever heard pilots refer to them. It's not like I hang around in pilot lounges and hear pilots saying, "Geeze Joe, I'm not sure if I can make this trip, there's a big Sierra AIRMET out right now."

My goodness, I can't believe I haven't killed myself yet, lacking this basic knowledge...

If that's the case, that's pretty sad.

 

[turbomax97]

I agree. You as a professional, or even a private pilot, have a duty to the public, including yourself, to be proficient on these things. Sure, you may not bend some metal, and get back on the ground with a WS for turbulence, but part of your job as a pilot is to ensure safety of whoever is on board, aka strapped down so they're not floating when ya hit an updraft

That being said, if 7 guys out of those 10 didn't know this information, well, there's disuse for you right there! I know for a fact, that's the first thing all the CFI's I know locally do in the morning, check all weather, NOTAMS.

I couldn't remember this saying about being complacent, but I did find this - Complacency - self-satisfaction accompanied by unawareness of actual danger or deficiences. I think not knowing WA-Z,S,T is more under the deficiency part there!

Anyhoo, off to work!