Airlines with Co-Domicile Ops

[derg]

Let's see here. You tell guys who have been kicked in the teeth for two years that they shouldn't bark loudly because DAL has scary management. Then you relate how your contract makes it very easy to co domicile. Remember the work rules at the short haul carriers are much much different then the ones you now work under. Nothing is an easy fix.

Kind of like my PBS example.

Don't look at us as a symbol of PBS, which most of us love. It's PBS + PWA + Software + the human "infrastructure" that make it good at my carrier.

But I wouldn't suggest it to anyone without ALL of the above.

(Ain't I right, @WMostellar? )

 

[Seggy]

Let's see here. You tell guys who have been kicked in the teeth for two years that they shouldn't bark loudly because DAL has scary management. Then you relate how your contract makes it very easy to co domicile. Remember the work rules at the short haul carriers are much much different then the ones you now work under. Nothing is an easy fix.

For those who have been kicked in the teeth, they can probably get a little more back for the codomicle than they have to 'give'. You want to play games instead of working to fix it and getting more back for the pilots.

Also stop putting words in my mouth. If the codomicle rules aren't up to snuff, the pilots shouldn't vote for it.

 

[amorris311]

For those who have been kicked in the teeth, they can probably get a little more back for the codomicle than they have to 'give'. You want to play games instead of working to fix it and getting more back for the pilots.

Also stop putting words in my mouth. If the codomicle rules aren't up to snuff, the pilots shouldn't vote for it.

So "pound sand" was your phrase last month. Now it's "stop putting words in my mouth!" Please tell me and show me where I put words in your mouth.

 

[derg]

But if you send in people without the knowledge of down co-terminal operations work, they're going to come up with crap.

You really don't want your negotiating team spinning up the machinery to solve a company dilemma and re-create the wheel.

I think a lot of people took the time to talk about how it can work, how it would work and that, at the end of the day, we live in a quid-pro-quo world.

 

[amorris311]

So explain to me how your idea of thinking is any different than going in with a high ask. You resort to if it doesn't work don't do it while I say go in and tell them what you need in order for it to work. Glass half full or half empty? Please enlighten me/us oh holy one.

 

[derg]

So "pound sand" was your phrase last month. Now it's "stop putting words in my mouth!" Please tell me and show me where I put words in your mouth.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"When you want a co terminal and your pilots need cash now… Call J G Wenthworth, eight seven seven CASH NOWWWWW!"

This made me laugh.

Then don't agree to them at a regional if they aren't put in there!

This too, for different reasons.

 

[Seggy]

So explain to me how your idea of thinking is any different than going in with a high ask. You resort to if it doesn't work don't do it while I say go in and tell them what you need in order for it to work. Glass half full or half empty? Please enlighten me/us oh holy one.

Well I was telling you that Co-domicile rules like we have would be necessary or it would be dead on arrival. Of course you weren't listening to me saying 'it isn't that simple', putting words in my mouth and assuming what I was saying.

Or are you the one that doesn't want a deal to get done so you can play games that you think will work?

 

[amorris311]

Well I was telling you that Co-domicile rules like we have would be necessary or it would be dead on arrival. Of course you weren't listening to me saying 'it isn't that simple', putting words in my mouth and assuming what I was saying.

Or are you the one that doesn't want a deal to get done so you can play games that you think will work

Hmmmm, I thought your approach was a bit more, listen here kids this is how the adults do it. I'm pretty sure most everyone else thought that too. So once again I ask you. How is it any different going into the meeting saying this is what we need? We did it with dual qual why can't we do it with co domicile? You explained to me that you guys get almost 4 hours for a callout with co domicile. Do you really think any short haul carrier will give that amount of time? Most short haul scheduling departments don't think that far in advance!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Just got a call from @amorris311 attempting to bitch me out over this. He claims that American Eagle had the co-domicle valued at 60 million dollars (@Gonzo, this right?). Say Delta/Endeavor value it at the same rate +/- 10 million dollars, that still won't cover the pre-bankruptcy rates. Of course you can ask for more, but realistically, you will get what Delta values it.

Also, the way Delta is looking at this is that 'if our Flight Attendants can cover all three, then pilots should be able to do it as well'. That is the mentality you are fighting here. Find a way to get what you want with that mentality.

This is why I don't have a ton of faith in ALPA lately. "Oh. The company won't like that." Is a really crappy way to bargain.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

@Seggy

I think if you look at the responses that you get on most things you post regarding the regionals, most people think you have your head up your ass.

You seem to look at what is going on at the regionals right now like a 15 year old reading "Teen People" magazine. I'm glad we can be entertaining for you, but this IS our livelihood. We are glad you were lucky enough to escape, but we have to deal with this every day. So either have or back, or shut up end enjoy your freshly baked chocolate chip cookies.

You have forgotten so much since you have gotten out of the regional game.

 

[derg]

Hmmmm, I thought your approach was a bit more, listen here kids this is how the adults do it. I'm pretty sure most everyone else thought that too. So once again I ask you. How is it any different going into the meeting saying this is what we need? We did it with dual qual why can't we do it with co domicile? You explained to me that you guys get almost 4 hours for a callout with co domicile. Do you really think any short haul carrier will give that amount of time? Most short haul scheduling departments don't think that far in advance!

That's kind of how I read it as well.

 

[surreal1221]

If the company wants it bad enough, make them pay for it?

Uh...yeah...the same company being paid pennies on the dollar to operate flights is somehow gonna have a whole heck of a lot of money to now toss toward the wishes of the pilots after crying poor recently?

Somehow I don't see the company giving a huge lucrative offer to make this happen. Instead they'll claim the pilots need to give a concession for the increased "positive quality of life improvement" now coming towards crew members.

 

[Seggy]

Hmmmm, I thought your approach was a bit more, listen here kids this is how the adults do it. I'm pretty sure most everyone else thought that too. So once again I ask you. How is it any different going into the meeting saying this is what we need?

Going into the meeting saying you need pre-bankruptcy pay rates restored is quite a bit different than going into the meeting saying, we want protections for our co-domiciled pilots. Yes, monetary gains can be gained for this, but do you think someone based in MSP will be given a $15,000 a year raise for this? Seriously, do you think that will happen? If you were the company would you agree to that? If so why?

We did it with dual qual why can't we do it with co domicile?

Once again, it is called being realistic about what you ask for.

You explained to me that you guys get almost 4 hours for a callout with co domicile. Do you really think any short haul carrier will give that amount of time? Most short haul scheduling departments don't think that far in advance!

I find it funny that you got in my ass for this while you are concerned about making it work from a management point of view. The logistics of making it work, really isn't your concern.

 

[Seggy]

This is why I don't have a ton of faith in ALPA lately. "Oh. The company won't like that." Is a really crappy way to bargain.

Then why don't you volunteer?

 

[Seggy]

@Seggy

I think if you look at the responses that you get on most things you post regarding the regionals, most people think you have your head up your ass.

It isn't.

You seem to look at what is going on at the regionals right now like a 15 year old reading "Teen People" magazine. I'm glad we can be entertaining for you, but this IS our livelihood. We are glad you were lucky enough to escape, but we have to deal with this every day. So either have or back, or shut up end enjoy your freshly baked chocolate chip cookies.

I am WELL aware the livelihood of folks rest on this. Hence, why I think co-domicle basing can be a huge QOL improvement for a lot of pilots on property. However, we pilots do a great job of shooting ourselves in the foot. Asking and getting for tens of millions more for a contractual clause is awesome, but rarely comes to fruition. Is leaving 5 million dollars on the table worth it when you think you should get 25 million in a single issue letter of agreement type of negotiation?

You have forgotten so much since you have gotten out of the regional game.

Not at all. With the bankruptcy of Pinnacle, a lot has changed. It sucks.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I am more than glad I walked away from that place-

The only reason they want co-dom is $$.

I'm not sure I would say yes to something like that under current terms. Establish precedent. If the company wants to make a move that requires the pilots to help, then they need to help the pilots on the back end.

I just don't see them being willing to do that, and would inherently distrust anything they offer.

 

[v1valarob]

For all those saying to say no,... I'm pretty sure this would happen in the form of an LOA. The pilot group wouldn't get a vote.

 

[CAPIP1998]

I think most people are pitting the cart way in front of the horse. For the 9e pilots, reach out to your reps and express your concerns, needs, and wants. The reps direct the negotiating committee. It's the negotiators job to take the direction from the MEC, see what they can work out with the company and then come back to the MEC. This being such a hot button issue you can be sure the details will be put out and the pilots given a chance to weigh in before the MEC votes. Please keep in mind that while there is money to be saved in this by the company, there are also benefits to the pilots in having a co domicile as well.

It's easy to grandstand and chest thump saying you need full contract restoration. The reality (and history) is that real contract improvement happens with consistent singles, not a grand slam. Right now the best thing to do is talk to your reps and see what can be negotiated. If it isn't acceptable then it doesn't work and we go with having separate domiciles.

As for the value of the eagle co domicile, it was 1.5 million /year towards the bankruptcy ask. Keep in mind that number isn't reality based, but a negotiated value as well. Pinnacle valued co domiciles in NY (during the bankruptcy) at $16,000 / year.

Although it was fun to watch @Seggy and @amorris go at it again! Ah, the good ole days...

 

[Seggy]

It's easy to grandstand and chest thump saying you need full contract restoration. The reality (and history) is that real contract improvement happens with consistent singles, not a grand slam.

Post of the year.

Right now the best thing to do is talk to your reps and see what can be negotiated. If it isn't acceptable then it doesn't work and we go with having separate domiciles.

Yep.

Pinnacle valued co domiciles in NY (during the bankruptcy) at $16,000 / year.

That is ridiculously low.

Although it was fun to watch @Seggy and @amorris go at it again! Ah, the good ole days...

You should have been on the phone with us yesterday.