Airlines with Co-Domicile Ops

LAX/SNA/ONT and LGA/JFK/EWR are two different animals entirely.

When we went to staffing all crew schedulers in Mecca, a lot of them didn't understand LA traffic and it took a lot of training in order to help them realize that "I'll get there when I get there" is the most realistic answer.

We also have EWR/LGA/JFK as a single base, but like Los Angeles, it's treated a little 'differently'.

I think of it like PBS. When some folks say, "Well the other airlines have it!" yes, other airlines do, but PBS isn't a program, it's an entire system, of sorts. Do you have all of the underlying machinery like PBS QC, the contractual right to tell the company to re-run it, manning formulas, etc?

That's why I strongly feel that the union simply shouldn't roll over and say, "Ok, the other airlines do it, it's doable" — really think about the way it's going to affect both local and commuting pilots and really delve into the dynamics of getting around the quagmire that is NY/NJ. Because if you don't play "Doubting Thomas" and really look at what you're agreeing to, the operation will melt down.

And bring back some cash and prizes for your pilot group.
 
v1valarob said:
@Seggy, I think our total contribution to the pot for our concessionary contract was in the $20m's. If you do the math for a $4/hr pay raise for 50% of our pilot group you don't even hit $3.5M a year at guarantee.
Click to expand...

Then if the valuation works out that way, it works out that way.

And it's a bit of a slap in the face when you log onto DL net and see Delta boasting about the BBBillions in profit and giving mainline employees ideas on how they can spend their profit sharing paycheck.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would be pissed.
 
cencal83406 said:
@Seggy

The reality of the SLI is what it is. The only thing that I don't get is why we have quotas?

If you were here, you would see that pre merger XJ guys are pretty upset too.



Quote: "I started the merger as an XJ DTW 900 CA, right now, I'm a DTW 200 FO. My premerger company still has all of its jets, yet last month I was sitting right seat to a Colgan guy who started the merger as an FO. How does something like that even happen?"

Bloch shouldn't have put any quotas. It should have just been straight ISL seniority to hold whatever. The quota doesn't matter. The XJ and 9E side are below quota.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

Funny how if things were growing, the quotas would have been great for you guys, not so much for the Colgan folks.
 
@Seggy why don't you for a minute agree that regional contracts are no where near your or other mainline contracts. That being said they need to be realistic in what to expect from their crew members. I know you think you have a different job then regional guys, which still baffles me, but at the end of the day we are all here to do the same job. Why not encourage these negotiations to strive for what you have then just give your opinions as to why it won't work?
 
amorris311 said:
@Seggy why don't you for a minute agree that regional contracts are no where near your or other mainline contracts.
Click to expand...

Why are you putting words in my mouth? Where did I say that regional contracts are on par with mainline contracts? SHOW ME ANDREW! DON'T YOU DARE PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

Also, let ALL of us not forget that regionals were supposed to be a short temporary stop in our careers. Unfortunately, it isn't working out that way, and a lot of folks are now stuck at regionals, but these contracts were not negotiated to be contracts people were supposed to live under for that long. An unfortunate byproduct of that is how subpar they are to other more mature contracts for those at the regionals longer than they thought they would be.

That being said they need to be realistic in what to expect from their crew members.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I know you think you have a different job then regional guys, which still baffles me, but at the end of the day we are all here to do the same job.
Click to expand...

So are you say the economies of a 50 seat RJ are the same for a 179 seat 757?

Why not encourage these negotiations to strive for what you have then just give your opinions as to why it won't work?
Click to expand...

Once again, in this specific example, where did I say that they SHOULDN'T strive for provisions like we have for co-domiciles?

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!
 
@Seggy since I'm on my phone I'll just point you in the right direction. How many times did you say that if they go into these negotiations aimed high DAL management will roll over them?

In response to the 50 seat comment, I never said the economies were the same nor did I even make that an argument. I said we do the same job. How many times have you told me on the phone we don't? I can think of several.

In response to the contracts not being equal, you said that if a certain company can do we all can do it. You gave the example of LAX/SNA. I'm sure if we really dug in your contract, or the one you're referencing, we will find that there are many provisions and stipulations that must be followed in order for it to work. Do you really think that any regional carrier is going to get those protections? Remember, we are still human beings and we still have to deal with the real world scenarios life throws at us. Just generally saying you can do it solves nothing and shows the disconnect you have already created with the two sectors of this industry.
 
cencal83406 said:
We have given way too much for this to be short sighted. I lol'd at our ATP rep because he voted for the concessions under the guise from Lee Moak that the SSP interview was a formality.

Our union keeps coming up with special things for small groups. We lost long call reserve, but since they are closing JFK 200 they allowed long call reserve to be awarded to those pilots.

Almost reminds me of the 2008 or 2009 short staffing debacle where they were going to allow dual qual of 900 guys at 900 rates onto the 200.

@Cherokee_Cruiser may remember that.

The union wants to give up the hats clause in the contract, to show good negotiating will. Ygbsm
Click to expand...

Yes, but our dual qual issues were more pay related and questions about PCs. Did they want to give sick, vacation, etc for -200 pay or -900 pay? What if you haven't flown a -900 in a long time and training/checking events in the -200 versus -900? These were the issues for dual-qual. Other airlines like Skywest or Mesa I've heard do fly all -200/700/900 as one pilot group. However, I think the basing issue is separate for a co-domicile. IMO as long as you get good protections like the ones mentioned, it might actually be better for the group as opposed to opening a second LGA-only base.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yes, but our dual qual issues were more pay related and questions about PCs. Did they want to give sick, vacation, etc for -200 pay or -900 pay? What if you haven't flown a -900 in a long time and training/checking events in the -200 versus -900? These were the issues for dual-qual. Other airlines like Skywest or Mesa I've heard do fly all -200/700/900 as one pilot group. However, I think the basing issue is separate for a co-domicile. IMO as long as you get good protections like the ones mentioned, it might actually be better for the group as opposed to opening a second LGA-only base.
Click to expand...

No I'm talking about the DTW understaffing that they were going to pay 900 FOs 900 pay to fly the 200. TDY style.
 
Seggy said:
:rolleyes:

Funny how if things were growing, the quotas would have been great for you guys, not so much for the Colgan folks.
Click to expand...

What is the point of a quota, @amorris311 and @Seggy ?

I love flying with the Colgan guys, don't get me wrong. I just don't get why we even have quotas if they aren't supposed to protect both displacements and vacancies?
 
In the management lunch today BW made it clear the concern of the company is attracting pilots to the company, not improving conditions for everyone already here. He made it clear that we will staff as many 200s as we can get our hands on (up to about 100-125 airframes). He referenced the Envoy/Eagle AIP as a "game-changer" and made it clear that improvements to the SSP will have to be made to match the deal. The trick is getting Delta to agree to it. They are still looking at the SSP as a success. 33% of our pilots are getting Delta classes, where around 1% of the applicants off the street are getting the opportunity to interview.

The 4-year FO pay cap was brought up and one of the biggest hurdles to making this company a better place to work. He pretty much made it sound like that if we can attract pilots with the SSP in the future the cap won't be an issue, and for those of us on it now we will just have to make due with what we have.
 
Seggy said:
Doesn't work that way.

You can only begin and end trips at the origin airport of the pairing in co-domicle contract language.
Click to expand...
They want to open negotiation about co-domicile. I promise you they will try to cut that language out, or they will let it want to be able to end it with a non duty time limo.
 
Seggy said:
Just got a call from @amorris311 attempting to bitch me out over this. He claims that American Eagle had the co-domicle valued at 60 million dollars (@Gonzo, this right?). Say Delta/Endeavor value it at the same rate +/- 10 million dollars, that still won't cover the pre-bankruptcy rates. Of course you can ask for more, but realistically, you will get what Delta values it.
Click to expand...

It was no where near 60 million, I think it was a few million if that, I will make some calls to get the number.

We have a co-domicle and it seems to be working good.

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
VX is non-union and has a co-domicile JFK-EWR as a "NYC" base. There is no union so there isn't negotiating, but management gave:

* JFK defined as the primary airport, EWR as the secondary airport
* Any pairing that starts in one airport must end in the same airport
* If JFK trip overnights in EWR, you still get hotel at EWR. Same for EWR trip that overnights in JFK = still get hotel
* Parking passes for both airports
* Short call reserve callout increased to 3 hrs (up from the usual 2 hrs in SFO/LAX)
* Reserve pilots called out to secondary airport (EWR) are given a transportation stipend of $60


I must admit the last one is very nice for reserves. Not a lot of companies out there paying for transportation for reserves to cover the satellite airports. .
Click to expand...

Our co-domicile of JFK/LGA is just about the same as yours, only our reserve pilots get $200 a month.
 
Gonzo said:
It was no where near 60 million, I think it was a few million if that, I will make some calls to get the number.

We have a co-domicle and it seems to be working good.



Our co-domicile of JFK/LGA is just about the same as yours, only our reserve pilots get $200 a month.
Click to expand...
Yea now that I think about it that was the total ask during bk. I know co domicile came off the table quick when discussing credit for that give. It was a high number if memory serves me correct.
 
Seggy said:
No.

Just don't get so emotional when I call it like I see it.
Click to expand...
Let's see here. You tell guys who have been kicked in the teeth for two years that they shouldn't bark loudly because DAL has scary management. Then you relate how your contract makes it very easy to co domicile. Remember the work rules at the short haul carriers are much much different then the ones you now work under. Nothing is an easy fix.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top