Aircraft Call-sign first or last?

V

VDEE7

New Member
Are there any references whether the pilot should state aircraft call-sign at the beginning of the transmission or at the end when reading back assigned altitude / heading for instance?
 
LarryinTN said:
Yes, it's listed in the AIM. It says that the callsign should be either before or after the readback.
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Yep, i think i saw that in there too. I guess do whichever feels right. If your reading it back i think you would put it at the end but idk i could be wrong.
 
Most pilots seem to state their call sign after the transmission, but I get some who do it before. The most important thing is to always state your call sign with every transmission and give a full read back. The other night I had a flight that I would issue control instructions and the pilot only responded with their call sign... no read back. I was a bit annoyed after a while...
 
I got reamed pretty much every flight in training for not using the callsign first.

...I still don't use it first normally.

-mini
 
I will rarely use the callsign first except if it's in a clarification format. "OK, I believe that was for Delta 123, climb and maintain FL350?"

Other than that, I can think of no examples where I will put the callsign prior to the readback mainbody.
 
What would be really nice if, during initial pilot training, pilots were taught HOW to speak on a frequency. It has gotten worse and worse over the past few years with pilots:
  1. NEVER using call signs. (I do not have time to memorize your voice)
Last night for example, serious Lvl 1-5 wx all around ATL a DAL B752 comes off of ATL " DAL1586 is with you." No altitude leaving, no assigned altitude. I verify both and all I get is "Roger" No call sign. 4 other separate transmission to this aircraft and EVERY time I had to re-verify that it was in fact DAL1586 that had answered, and all I ever got was "Roger" which then entailed me to beg for a call sign. Did I mention that WX was EVERYWHERE, and didn't have time for this???
  1. not checking on with ATIS
  2. leaving out altitude leaving (if in a decent or climb)
  3. verifying assigned altitude
  4. (my favorite) not saying heading when given a heading IE. "DAL12 Heavy turn left heading 180. "
"DAL 12 180(of course PLEASE leave out the word HEAVY, as I am only required to use correct phraseology, and will get in trouble if I don't say it).
Now was that a heading you just acknowledged for or are you going to climb to FL 180??? I have, over the past 22+ years of controlling at A90,BOS,CLT,ATL and A80, seen and have happen to me at LEAST 50+ pilots just read back 180 240, etc and not use the word heading and then CLIMB to FL180, 240, etc. into other aircraft.
Those are the ones I have caught, sometimes not. Problem is I have to verify this at least a few dozen plus times a day nowadays, every day, which has made me start using heading that end with a 5 IE 185 245, etc. Just to Cover my ARSE.

Clear, compact and concise - but that doesn't mean leave the important stuff out.

CJ @ A80:banghead:
 
ATLTRACON said:
What would be really nice if, during initial pilot training, pilots were taught HOW to speak on a frequency.
Click to expand...

Some are, but what I find is that pilots tend to start emulating what they hear on the radio. They figure if an airline pilot speaks in a certain way, it must be OK. Their ultimate defense is that "ATC doesn't complain."

Most pilots, probably like most people, would rather conform to their social groups than do things properly.
 
ATLTRACON said:
What would be really nice if, during initial pilot training, pilots were taught HOW to speak on a frequency. It has gotten worse and worse over the past few years with pilots:
  1. NEVER using call signs. (I do not have time to memorize your voice)
Last night for example, serious Lvl 1-5 wx all around ATL a DAL B752 comes off of ATL " DAL1586 is with you." No altitude leaving, no assigned altitude. I verify both and all I get is "Roger" No call sign. 4 other separate transmission to this aircraft and EVERY time I had to re-verify that it was in fact DAL1586 that had answered, and all I ever got was "Roger" which then entailed me to beg for a call sign. Did I mention that WX was EVERYWHERE, and didn't have time for this???
  1. not checking on with ATIS
  2. leaving out altitude leaving (if in a decent or climb)
  3. verifying assigned altitude
  4. (my favorite) not saying heading when given a heading IE. "DAL12 Heavy turn left heading 180. "
"DAL 12 180(of course PLEASE leave out the word HEAVY, as I am only required to use correct phraseology, and will get in trouble if I don't say it).
Now was that a heading you just acknowledged for or are you going to climb to FL 180??? I have, over the past 22+ years of controlling at A90,BOS,CLT,ATL and A80, seen and have happen to me at LEAST 50+ pilots just read back 180 240, etc and not use the word heading and then CLIMB to FL180, 240, etc. into other aircraft.
Those are the ones I have caught, sometimes not. Problem is I have to verify this at least a few dozen plus times a day nowadays, every day, which has made me start using heading that end with a 5 IE 185 245, etc. Just to Cover my ARSE.

Clear, compact and concise - but that doesn't mean leave the important stuff out.

CJ @ A80:banghead:
Click to expand...
I'll make you a deal, I'll always check on with the ATIS, if you don't respond with Roger, expect the visual, and confirm you have ATIS D.
 
mnixon said:
I'll make you a deal, I'll always check on with the ATIS, if you don't respond with Roger, expect the visual, and confirm you have ATIS D.
Click to expand...

Please expound on what is wrong with this. As a controller, when you check on I have to verify that you have the correct ATIS and I have to tell you what approach to expect.

CJ @ A80:banghead:
 
He means there are plenty of times we check on with the correct ATIS code and it's like ATC didn't even hear it when they say "confirm you have ATIS D."

I just told him I had ATIS D!
 
Got your point. I do notice that no matter what ATIS letter I ask for the reply is always we got it. But it's kind of a give away that if you just checked on with ATIS M and I say it's C, and then you come right back and tell me you have C I'm starting to question your honesty:)

CJ @ A80:banghead:
 
I'll have to say you ATL boys do a pretty good job. Grant it I don't go in there as much as some on this board but you guys sure know how to run a large airport.

I really wish you'd hold a seminar and the jokers from CLT would come down and learn a few things.

~Starcheck151
 
ATLTRACON said:
Clear, compact and concise - but that doesn't mean leave the important stuff out.
Click to expand...

Perfect!

Here is an excerpt from one major airline's Flight Manual. I think it is helpful for this discussion.

Radio Techniques
  • Always use “[Airline] and flight number” for transmissions.
  • Be careful to read back all critical points of the clearance. For example, approach control says, “[Airline] 54 fly heading 110 degrees to intercept the localizer, maintain 3,000 feet until established, cleared for the ILS to runway 12R. Contact the tower 118.7 at the marker.” You should read back, “[Airline] 54, 110 degrees to intercept the localizer at 3,000 feet, cleared for ILS 12R, tower at the marker.”
  • Listen carefully for critical adjectives and adverbs in clearances. One or two critical words can completely change the clearance.
  • Avoid switching frequencies without giving the controller a chance to hear your readback.
  • When checking in on a new frequency, pause a moment to make sure someone else is not transmitting.
  • If relatively new to the civilian aviation environment, listen to the radio techniques and phraseology of others, you may pick up some finer points.
  • When copying a clearance from clearance delivery, read back the clearance verbatim unless instructed otherwise.
  • If you need to get the ATIS or call the Company, tell the Captain you are off frequency. Do not try to be super First Officer and listen to the ATIS and talk to ATC at the same time.
  • Speak with a clear consistent volume and manner.
  • Do not use unnecessary phraseology like “standing by for ....” and “with you.” The controller already knows these things and it wastes radio time.
 
My company went on a rant about how it was "proper" to always say the callsign first and insisted we always did it that way. I guess someone got fed up, asked where in the AIM it said that it was proper ICAO radio phraseology, he couldn't find it and lightened up.
 
Doug Taylor said:
My company went on a rant about how it was "proper" to always say the callsign first and insisted we always did it that way. I guess someone got fed up, asked where in the AIM it said that it was proper ICAO radio phraseology, he couldn't find it and lightened up.
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We do it because at 5am out of our main sort it is nothing but 50 of us on tower and departure spaced 30secs apart and apparently it helps approach if we say our callsign first.
 
ATLTRACON said:
Problem is I have to verify this at least a few dozen plus times a day nowadays, every day, which has made me start using heading that end with a 5 IE 185 245, etc. Just to Cover my ARSE.

Clear, compact and concise - but that doesn't mean leave the important stuff out.

CJ @ A80:banghead:
Click to expand...


If you were working ATL Approach on Sunday afternoon, I think I may have been one of the guys you assigned a heading with a 5 to. I'll make sure I include the word heading on my read backs here out. :o
 
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