Airbus Official talks about pilot training

[Blackhawk]

So take some of the load off the NFP by working the FD while hand flying out of LGA. The whitestone is a much better scenario for maintaining a scan and SA than VFR out of an outstation (not that there's anything bad with that).

Wait- are you talking about hand flying while also dialing in the altitude and heading changes? If so that is against our OM as well as those of most 121 carriers. If hand flying FCP and FMS inputs are made by the NFP.

 

[TWP]

I would like to submit a SMS that includes the airlines buying all their pilots a few hours of glider training every month.....and beer, lots of beer.


Problem solved and you're welcome.

 

[Nark]

This doesn't surprise me at all. Talk to five pilots and you'll probably find four that enjoy not flying, or brag about flying as little as possible.
Heck, you see it a lot of the members here.

I've only seen 1, one, uno, eine pilot actually hand fly an arrival. It was a United FO. I take pride in kicking off the autothrust, but I'm not in the same league as the guy in question.
I will be though.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This is a huge problem with the industry, I have seen this at nearly place I've ever worked - we have no real "continuing education" process for flight crews in the industry in general - rather we "check" everything twice a year and call it good. I'd rather see a "once a year" checking event and every 6 months have a series of no jeopardy "scenario based" training events and some mandatory hands on flying. That or a "continuous recurrent training" system where we did sim sessions and scenarios every 3 months and good CBT on a monthly basis. Unfortunately, this costs money...and companies typically don't want to spend it. Regardless, companies need to foster and cultivate a culture of continuous self-improvement in their pilots (really in everyone at the company) - they need to not just say it either - companies need to pay for it.

You know what my recurrent is going to be?

A proficiency check. (Oh and a day of ground, but you get the idea - the flight portion is going to be ticking off the boxes. If there's extra time left over, then we might go do some cool stuff, like a raw data (not in database) VOR approach or something.)

-shrugs-

That is, apparently, how it is.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

http://www.wsj.com/article_email/ai...-changes-1428853600-lMyQjAxMTI1NjM4MDAzMjAzWj

Even if Scairbi pilots are good sticks and know what the rudder is for, what difference does it make in a plane where all those silly little control input decisions are made by a 586 chip?

 

[Deleted member 27505]

The bottom line here is that the airlines don't really give 1/2 a crap about either airmanship or monkey skills; so long as training programs are meeting the FAA minimum standard and cost the line the least amount of money they can, that's what they want to do.

We are a long way from when Pan Am called themselves "The Most Experienced Airline In The World" with pride, because it meant something that their pilots and in-flight service were skilled beyond a minimum required federal standard -- it was a brand image and perceived as an attraction for customers.

So long as there aren't tv crews filming NTSB investigators walking through a flaming debris field with "YOUR AIRLINE" on the vertical stab, they're not interested in doing any more than the absolute minimum required for crews to be "safe" and "legal".

Pilots who actually care about their airmanship have to cultivate and curate it themselves.

Heck man! Where you been hanging? "YOUR AIRLINE" on the tail of the airplane on the national/international news??!!! That's money these days. You couldn't buy that kind of exposure if you wanted to. Publicity is publicity. Bad publicity is good publicity.
It's all ball bearings these days. Maybe you need a refresher course.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I have spoken to Bob Hoover, and he readily admits that he doesn't have it all figured out as an aviator. Anyone with less experience and airmanship than him should take note.

I've spoken to Bob Hoover many times myself. He readily admits that I don't have much of anything figured out.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

This doesn't surprise me at all. Talk to five pilots and you'll probably find four that enjoy not flying, or brag about flying as little as possible.
Heck, you see it a lot of the members here.

I've only seen 1, one, uno, eine pilot actually hand fly an arrival. It was a United FO. I take pride in kicking off the autothrust, but I'm not in the same league as the guy in question.
I will be though.

I don't ever do them, but I don't believe flying RNP arrivals by hand is even legal. Other arrivals?? Every day. Why do you take that to be such a feat?

 

[Nark]

I don't ever do them, but I don't believe flying RNP arrivals by hand is even legal. Other arrivals?? Every day. Why do you take that to be such a feat?

What? Who told you hand flying an RNP arrival was "illegal."
As I stated, it is very rare for a 121 pilot to hand fly an arrival,I didn't say approach, I said arrival. (In my anecdotal experience)

 

[Seggy]

Even if Scairbi pilots are good sticks and know what the rudder is for, what difference does it make in a plane where all those silly little control input decisions are made by a 586 chip?

How much time do you have in Le'Airbus?

 

[Blackhawk]

What? Who told you hand flying an RNP arrival was "illegal."
As I stated, it is very rare for a 121 pilot to hand fly an arrival,I didn't say approach, I said arrival. (In my anecdotal experience)

Not illegal. I know when they first game out FD was required and autopilot on if available but that changed at some point.
However there may be some where it is. Here is a memo on some of the DFW departures and issues there.

https://www.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/20110127-nbaa-dfw-rnav-sid-memo.pdf
If you have a deviation hand flying I'm sure the question will be asked- why?

Finally the issue with pilots not being able to hand fly rarely has anything to do with instrument flying- be it a departure, arrival or approach. We're normally instrument flying beasts. The issue is when we have to break off from a localized at LGA and circle to land with a visual approach. Hand flying an arrival won't fix this.

 

[Dan208B]

Here at Eskimo Airlines we have an interesting mix of cultures that tends to sway far to one side and far the to the other depending on how north and south the pilot base is. Farther north you will literally see people hand fly the 737 all the way up to cruise and back down with no FD. Farther south I see more guys turning the autopilot on at 1000 feet and off on final. This isn't by any means entirely true but I want to make the point that overall the north guys that do it regularly do it well. And are smart about when to do it and not load up the PM. On that note a check airman recently said to me that he asked a captain to hand fly a visual in the sim without the HUD and the guy wasn't comfortable. It was his take that someone has no business being in the left seat of a 737 if they aren't comfortable doing that. I tend to agree.

 

[Blackhawk]

Here at Eskimo Airlines we have an interesting mix of cultures that tends to sway far to one side and far the to the other depending on how north and south the pilot base is. Farther north you will literally see people hand fly the 737 all the way up to cruise and back down with no FD. Farther south I see more guys turning the autopilot on at 1000 feet and off on final. This isn't by any means entirely true but I want to make the point that overall the north guys that do it regularly do it well. And are smart about when to do it and not load up the PM. On that note a check airman recently said to me that he asked a captain to hand fly a visual in the sim without the HUD and the guy wasn't comfortable. It was his take that someone has no business being in the left seat of a 737 if they aren't comfortable doing that. I tend to agree.

Now if by "... up to cruise..." you mean RVSM, then yeah. I have an issue with that.

 

[AAPalmTree]

Flying an airliner takes two things to be a "good stick." A normal ability to hand fly the plane and a good ability to manage the auto flight system.

My thoughts on the bus:
The Airbus is no different than anything else and then again it is different. I think a crappy pilot is magnified by flying the bus. Some recent Airbus crashes have uncovered some staggering pilot deficiencies in ability and decision making.

Lastly, I don't think one should be allowed to comment on the Airbus unless they have time in the aircraft. The BIGGEST issues people have with Airbus is usually from a lack of knowledge. I just heard a old/funny one last week:
"You're gonna get into a hold and the plane won't let you get out of it."

The truth is people do not hand fly the Airbus enough at my shop.

 

[Blackhawk]

Flying an airliner takes two things to be a "good stick." A normal ability to hand fly the plane and a good ability to manage the auto flight system.

My thoughts on the bus:
The Airbus is no different than anything else and then again it is different. I think a crappy pilot is magnified by flying the bus. Some recent Airbus crashes have uncovered some staggering pilot deficiencies in ability and decision making.

Lastly, I don't think one should be allowed to comment on the Airbus unless they have time in the aircraft. The BIGGEST issues people have with Airbus is usually from a lack of knowledge. I just heard a old/funny one last week:
"You're gonna get into a hold and the plane won't let you get out of it."

The truth is people do not hand fly the Airbus enough at my shop.

I did not get this to be Airbus specific. It just happened to be Airbus that said this. I think other aircraft manufacturers have said the same thing.

 

[Dan208B]

Now if by "... up to cruise..." you mean RVSM, then yeah. I have an issue with that.

So my understanding of it (and our company's interpretation of the reg supported by our feds) is that it is "level flight in RVSM." So I see people hand fly in RVSM airspace all the time and I support that. As long as when they level off they turn it on. I believe there is a lot of misinformation about this around the industry, but as far as I see it nothing wrong with flying up to and down from cruise altitude by hand. We also have a lot of shorter flights that never reach RVSM airspace but have a level segment and I see guys fly the entire leg on those.

 

[ppragman]

So my understanding of it (and our company's interpretation of the reg supported by our feds) is that it is "level flight in RVSM." So I see people hand fly in RVSM airspace all the time and I support that. As long as when they level off they turn it on. I believe there is a lot of misinformation about this around the industry, but as far as I see it nothing wrong with flying up to and down from cruise altitude by hand. We also have a lot of shorter flights that never reach RVSM airspace but have a level segment and I see guys fly the entire leg on those.

This sounds awesome.

 

[Dan208B]

This sounds awesome.

I'm convinced this is the actual intention of the reg and you can do it anywhere unless your FOM or something says otherwise.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Actually, everything I've heard about him is that he is really down to earth and enjoys talking to pilots.
Now that other famous P-51 pilot... not so much.

I spoke, very briefly, to Mr. Hoover in (I think) 1999. Wasn't like it was a long conversation or anything, but he exuded decency and coolness in a way that you just can't fake. Chuckles, I'm told, is a whole different ball of wax.

 

[Blackhawk]

So my understanding of it (and our company's interpretation of the reg supported by our feds) is that it is "level flight in RVSM." So I see people hand fly in RVSM airspace all the time and I support that. As long as when they level off they turn it on. I believe there is a lot of misinformation about this around the industry, but as far as I see it nothing wrong with flying up to and down from cruise altitude by hand. We also have a lot of shorter flights that never reach RVSM airspace but have a level segment and I see guys fly the entire leg on those.

No, you are correct.