Air India plane crash

DE727UPS said:
I like Juan Brown. I watch him the most but still probably 20% of his videos. I've seen him be wrong and admit it. Steeve I watched once on the Citation crash at MYF. He said dive and drives cause crashes. Just flying causes crashes. Dive and drive is all we knew back in the day and it's perfectly safe if you don't bust mins. The other guy I don't watch.
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Dive and drive is a misnomer anyway, merely due to its implication by title. As we know, the descents between step downs are hardly dives. But the terms makes the maneuver sound unsafe.

That said, the trifecta of idiots in the “YouTube accident story scoop” business, are just that. Idiots looking for clicks, likes, subscribes for their narcissistic needs.
 
NovemberEcho said:
That guy Steve did the best breakdown of the EWR issues I’ve seen so far outside of a couple investigative news reports. He def had an inside source. Had a few things wrong but nothing crazy.
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Along those lines, rumor we heard this week was that either ZNY or ZDC was down to 4 controllers where they needed 14 minimum
 
killbilly said:
Along those lines, rumor we heard this week was that either ZNY or ZDC was down to 4 controllers where they needed 14 minimum
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When I was at ZNY our target staffing was 11 on the day and 12 on the evening and we were definitely the highest staffed area in the building due to oceanic and non-contiguous radar sectors. No idea what the staffing in my old area looks like now. When we were short we just put massive in trail restrictions on n.90 so that we wouldn't have to split a scope. That stuff rolls all the way down hill to the airport ground controllers.
 
This accident shows that even with a Flight Data Recorder that records a large number of aircraft parameters and functions, and a Cockpit Voice Recorder that records voice; there can still be very big unresolved questions such that we are seeing with this accident. Was a fuel switch physically activated or not? Was it an electrical anomaly or not?

Due to this, it’s high time to rethink the concept of another CVR recorder, the Cockpit Video Recorder. Which if that was installed, would clear up the questions in this accident regarding actual crew actions or inactions, quite quickly. Our helicopters are equipped with a Vision 1000 CVR that records video and audio, and is situated such in the cockpit that it shows the glare shield down to the instrument panel center console, with the edges of the video having the front seat crew helmets and forearms forward to the hands, and about knees down to the feet on the pedals. The video would fill in the gaps that the voice and data recorders cannot catch, and should get the same protections and safety privilege that the usual CVR/FDR receive.
 
MikeD said:
This accident shows that even with a Flight Data Recorder that records a large number of aircraft parameters and functions, and a Cockpit Voice Recorder that records voice; there can still be very big unresolved questions such that we are seeing with this accident. Was a fuel switch physically activated or not? Was it an electrical anomaly or not?

Due to this, it’s high time to rethink the concept of another CVR recorder, the Cockpit Video Recorder. Which if that was installed, would clear up the questions in this accident regarding actual crew actions or inactions, quite quickly. Our helicopters are equipped with a Vision 1000 CVR that records video and audio, and is situated such in the cockpit that it shows the glare shield down to the instrument panel center console, with the edges of the video having the front seat crew helmets and forearms forward to the hands, and about knees down to the feet on the pedals. The video would fill in the gaps that the voice and data recorders cannot catch, and should get the same protections and safety privilege that the usual CVR/FDR receive.
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No thanks.
 
MikeD said:
This accident shows that even with a Flight Data Recorder that records a large number of aircraft parameters and functions, and a Cockpit Voice Recorder that records voice; there can still be very big unresolved questions such that we are seeing with this accident. Was a fuel switch physically activated or not? Was it an electrical anomaly or not?

Due to this, it’s high time to rethink the concept of another CVR recorder, the Cockpit Video Recorder. Which if that was installed, would clear up the questions in this accident regarding actual crew actions or inactions, quite quickly. Our helicopters are equipped with a Vision 1000 CVR that records video and audio, and is situated such in the cockpit that it shows the glare shield down to the instrument panel center console, with the edges of the video having the front seat crew helmets and forearms forward to the hands, and about knees down to the feet on the pedals. The video would fill in the gaps that the voice and data recorders cannot catch, and should get the same protections and safety privilege that the usual CVR/FDR receive.
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We don't have much in that preliminary report at all. We get much more detail and context in typical CVR transcripts and that is what I expect we will get in the final report. We received what feels like unrefined snippets of the CVR. You can turn those switches off pretty quietly. They don't make a snap unless you really flip the switch.

To cockpit video. No.
 
Old Boeing Driver said:
Interesting article from Indian media.

www.ndtv.com

Expert Claims Pilot May Have Deliberately Crashed Air India Flight

A leading aviation safety expert has suggested that the fatal crash of Air India Flight 171 may have been the result of deliberate human action, raising, for the first time, the possibility of a pilot-induced crash.
www.ndtv.com www.ndtv.com
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I dont buy into this theory at all. There are a million other ways to off yourself without having to come up with a complex plan that includes sneaking your fat fingers into a position to switch off the fuel hoping that it works out the way you imagine it will, without the FO knowing what was happening. Meh...poppycock.
 
MikeD said:
This accident shows that even with a Flight Data Recorder that records a large number of aircraft parameters and functions, and a Cockpit Voice Recorder that records voice; there can still be very big unresolved questions such that we are seeing with this accident. Was a fuel switch physically activated or not? Was it an electrical anomaly or not?

Due to this, it’s high time to rethink the concept of another CVR recorder, the Cockpit Video Recorder. Which if that was installed, would clear up the questions in this accident regarding actual crew actions or inactions, quite quickly. Our helicopters are equipped with a Vision 1000 CVR that records video and audio, and is situated such in the cockpit that it shows the glare shield down to the instrument panel center console, with the edges of the video having the front seat crew helmets and forearms forward to the hands, and about knees down to the feet on the pedals. The video would fill in the gaps that the voice and data recorders cannot catch, and should get the same protections and safety privilege that the usual CVR/FDR receive.
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The switches were physically moved by a person. No anomaly would physically move a switch to cutoff. And then the same anomaly allow a human to just run it again. These are physical robust switches.

It’s a prelim report, it’s intentionally short and withholding info. They know who said what. My gut feeling is there was more said in between the two pilots other than why did you shut off, and I didn’t do it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The switches were physically moved by a person. No anomaly would physically move a switch to cutoff. And then the same anomaly allow a human to just run it again. These are physical robust switches.

It’s a prelim report, it’s intentionally short and withholding info. They know who said what. My gut feeling is there was more said in between the two pilots other than why did you shut off, and I didn’t do it.
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Typically CVR transcripts show the input for each voice

Cab 1: and Cab 2: or similar.

They know exactly who said what. I doubt we ever see the CVR transcript.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Typically CVR transcripts show the input for each voice

Cab 1: and Cab 2: or similar.

They know exactly who said what. I doubt we ever see the CVR transcript.
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India, like Canada’s TSB, releases only pertinent CVR data.

Look at the two Air India Express 737 crash reports to see the data they’ve released in the past.
 
SeanD said:
I dont buy into this theory at all. There are a million other ways to off yourself without having to come up with a complex plan that includes sneaking your fat fingers into a position to switch off the fuel hoping that it works out the way you imagine it will, without the FO knowing what was happening. Meh...poppycock.
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probably right...but since this HAS happened before, while unlikely and not plausible...it's not 0%
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
India, like Canada’s TSB, releases only pertinent CVR data.

Look at the two Air India Express 737 crash reports to see the data they’ve released in the past.
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I’m assuming those crashes were not murder/suicides? Or even gross incompetence? With a face saving culture I doubt we see much of anything going forward.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I’m assuming those crashes were not murder/suicides? Or even gross incompetence? With a face saving culture I doubt we see much of anything going forward.
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Have you read those reports I alluded to?


India is not Egypt. So far, they actually have done a good job with accident investigation and reports. Now if this is suicide, we will see what happens. My understanding is, if it is, the AAIB turns the investigation over to their version of the FBI.


As for your gross incompetence comment, I think the Calicut crash was. The report mentions numerous items of the CAs background, his history of landing long, improper flaring, failing training on widebodies and being sent back to domestic, etc. etc.


It’s thorough, and all there for you to read.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Have you read those reports I alluded to?


India is not Egypt. So far, they actually have done a good job with accident investigation and reports. Now if this is suicide, we will see what happens. My understanding is, if it is, the AAIB turns the investigation over to their version of the FBI.


As for your gross incompetence comment, I think the Calicut crash was. The report mentions numerous items of the CAs background, his history of landing long, improper flaring, failing training on widebodies and being sent back to domestic, etc. etc.


It’s thorough, and all there for you to read.
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Why would I waste my time reading that?
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Why would I waste my time reading that?
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So you know how you like mountain biking?

Some like reading up on accidents that involve our very own fleet (737), in order to learn from dead pilots and try to avoid that fate in the future. Call it a professional learning experience. I don’t read every single page in a 200+ report. But a decent read of the initial info, the analysis, and the factual findings + probably cause? Absolutely.

Next time you find yourself in a hot plane with no APU because the crew didn’t turn it on :rolleyes: , maybe put the mountain bike magazine down and read a 737 accident report? :) There’s absolutely no shortage of them, rest assured. A lot of reading and a lot of learning to be had there - sadly.
 
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