Air India plane crash

Accident reports are available for Air India Express B737-800 accidents at Mangalore and Calicut. They are actually very thorough. If that’s any indication, I think the AAIB will do a good job with the final report. This isn’t Egypt.
 
Inverted said:
Blocking an investigator, being cagey with information, and even now, not having the prelim available to the public, are all red flags that will probably point to the fuel switches being moved to the cutoff position. It doesn't explain the why, but it does check all the other boxes.
Click to expand...
It def feels like they are trying to save face
 
Here's my long shot speculative hypothesis. Something weird/unintended happened with the automation to reduce power at in inopportune time, pilots (or perhaps one pilot) identified it as both engines rolling back, and they hastily applied whatever the 787 dual engine failure procedure is. In the 737, cliffs notes is that you put the start levers in cutoff and then back to on in order to get a windmill relight. The QRH/checklist is more in depth than that, and it isn't a memory item where I work anyway, but that is in the first few steps. Obviously none of that is designed to be effective at a few hundred feet and below 200 knots.
 
My guess was 200 ft set for field elevation inbound flight. Clearance outbound at 2,000 ft and the new altitude never set. TOGA / THR REF or whatever you call it on the 787 at takeoff roll, liftoff, then goes to alt cap and speed window opens at 200 ft. Initially both engines throttle back, perceived as dual engine failure. Like @///AMG said, initial steps of both switches to cutoff, and then idle - dine by memory, incorrect action.


I really hope not a suicide case. CA was 55 and about to retire early to take care of his 80s dad due to ailing health. FO was a youngster livin the widebody dream and only 1100 hrs. I dunno. Sounds like they both had things to live for.
 
juxtapilot said:
Not necessarily. There are a lot of accidents caused by pilots doing goofy things at the wrong time. Doesn’t mean it was nefarious.
Click to expand...
Right? Sometimes one might accidentally pull the fuel cut offs by mistake and recover a 767 300ft over the Pacific, but if you recover, you might as well keep going 3.5 hours East to CVG. The people still need to get there. That is being a professional.
 
Airbus (which is not Boeing) had an issue with A350 pilats spilling beverages on the center console which resulted in a series of airworthiness directives back in 2020.

“Two in-service occurrences were reported, involving inadvertent liquid spillage on the ENG START panel and Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitoring (ECAM) Control Panel (ECP), otherwise known as the Integrated Control Panel (ICP), on the centre pedestal in the flight deck on A350 aeroplanes. In both cases, after the liquid spillage, the aeroplane experienced an un-commanded engine in-flight shut-down (IFSD). Subsequent engine relight attempts were not successful. In both events, the flight crew performed a diversion and landed the aeroplane safely. Results of the preliminary technical investigations indicated abnormal operation of the components of the ICP due to liquid spillage in the system.”

News reporting says in one case the engine shutdown occurred 15 minutes after the spill, in the other it was around an hour after the spill.

I note we are approaching the date for the 30-day ICAO timeline for releasing a preliminary accident report. Being preliminary, there is no requirement to include much more than "this airplane crashed, we are investigating," so don't expect much.
 
Minuteman said:
Airbus (which is not Boeing) had an issue with A350 pilats spilling beverages on the center console which resulted in a series of airworthiness directives back in 2020.

“Two in-service occurrences were reported, involving inadvertent liquid spillage on the ENG START panel and Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitoring (ECAM) Control Panel (ECP), otherwise known as the Integrated Control Panel (ICP), on the centre pedestal in the flight deck on A350 aeroplanes. In both cases, after the liquid spillage, the aeroplane experienced an un-commanded engine in-flight shut-down (IFSD). Subsequent engine relight attempts were not successful. In both events, the flight crew performed a diversion and landed the aeroplane safely. Results of the preliminary technical investigations indicated abnormal operation of the components of the ICP due to liquid spillage in the system.”

News reporting says in one case the engine shutdown occurred 15 minutes after the spill, in the other it was around an hour after the spill.

I note we are approaching the date for the 30-day ICAO timeline for releasing a preliminary accident report. Being preliminary, there is no requirement to include much more than "this airplane crashed, we are investigating," so don't expect much.
Click to expand...

The nerds over at airliners.net have been fuming for weeks that authorities won't release a full explanation to satisfy them. It's been funny to watch.
 
Murdoughnut said:
The nerds over at airliners.net have been fuming for weeks that authorities won't release a full explanation to satisfy them. It's been funny to watch.
Click to expand...

While I agree and understand that these things take time, investigators have known what happened for like 27 days. Let's be real. They don't have all the answers yet, they haven't pieced and compiled everything together yet but they for sure know how that airplane crashed. Give the world something...

When investigators being turned away makes more substantial news than any relevant info on the accident being released, we've got a problem. If it was the switches being put into cutoff, this represents a huge blunder to the highest order of magnitude and its clear at this point that sensitivity is being afforded to Air India over it.

To put it another way, if this had been found to be a direct result of a Boeing fault, it would have hit the news weeks ago.
 
I have seen discussion that indicates a constraint on the 787 that the throttle lever must be at idle before a switch CUTOFF command will be allowed.

I do not believe that is correct and that a CUTOFF can occur when the lever is above idle.
 
Inverted said:
While I agree and understand that these things take time, investigators have known what happened for like 27 days. Let's be real. They don't have all the answers yet, they haven't pieced and compiled everything together yet but they for sure know how that airplane crashed. Give the world something...

When investigators being turned away makes more substantial news than any relevant info on the accident being released, we've got a problem. If it was the switches being put into cutoff, this represents a huge blunder to the highest order of magnitude and its clear at this point that sensitivity is being afforded to Air India over it.

To put it another way, if this had been found to be a direct result of a Boeing fault, it would have hit the news weeks ago.
Click to expand...

Sure, but there is considerable liability tied to anything you announce, so waiting as long as you can is likely a function of building the defense for what you're going to release.

I have no doubt that if whatever occurred was a risk, Boeing and others would have taken action. This seems more like a delay before blame is cast, which means we don't need to know right away.
 
Minuteman said:
Airbus (which is not Boeing) had an issue with A350 pilats spilling beverages on the center console which resulted in a series of airworthiness directives back in 2020.

“Two in-service occurrences were reported, involving inadvertent liquid spillage on the ENG START panel and Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitoring (ECAM) Control Panel (ECP), otherwise known as the Integrated Control Panel (ICP), on the centre pedestal in the flight deck on A350 aeroplanes. In both cases, after the liquid spillage, the aeroplane experienced an un-commanded engine in-flight shut-down (IFSD). Subsequent engine relight attempts were not successful. In both events, the flight crew performed a diversion and landed the aeroplane safely. Results of the preliminary technical investigations indicated abnormal operation of the components of the ICP due to liquid spillage in the system.”

News reporting says in one case the engine shutdown occurred 15 minutes after the spill, in the other it was around an hour after the spill.

I note we are approaching the date for the 30-day ICAO timeline for releasing a preliminary accident report. Being preliminary, there is no requirement to include much more than "this airplane crashed, we are investigating," so don't expect much.
Click to expand...
It was technically not a liquid that was “spilled”. I heard they were looking at their paychecks when it happened.
 
Minuteman said:
I have seen discussion that indicates a constraint on the 787 that the throttle lever must be at idle before a switch CUTOFF command will be allowed.

I do not believe that is correct and that a CUTOFF can occur when the lever is above idle.
Click to expand...
The 175 was this way with its start-stop selectors. Sensible.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
My guess was 200 ft set for field elevation inbound flight. Clearance outbound at 2,000 ft and the new altitude never set. TOGA / THR REF or whatever you call it on the 787 at takeoff roll, liftoff, then goes to alt cap and speed window opens at 200 ft. Initially both engines throttle back, perceived as dual engine failure. Like @///AMG said, initial steps of both switches to cutoff, and then idle - dine by memory, incorrect action.


I really hope not a suicide case. CA was 55 and about to retire early to take care of his 80s dad due to ailing health. FO was a youngster livin the widebody dream and only 1100 hrs. I dunno. Sounds like they both had things to live for.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't pushing the thrust lever forward all the way override the automation and go to maximum thrust?
 
arkavgal said:
Wouldn't pushing the thrust lever forward all the way override the automation and go to maximum thrust?
Click to expand...

There’s aviators and then there’s button pushers. Far too many button pusher pilots in that part of the world.


Just look at the second MAX crash. The crew knew about MCAS. They knew how to stop MCAS. Hit a bird and at liftoff, had airspeed and altitude yellow flags and constant stick shaker. Yet the CA asked for the Autopilot to be turned on 3 separate times as his first actions. This was a button pushing crew, not aviators.
 
arkavgal said:
I didn't want to say it, but if both fuel switches were turned off, murder/suicide is the most probable explanation.
Click to expand...
Not so fast, it has happened before cf. Delta flight 810, pilot (Captain) Flipped both 767 fuel switches to cut-off. Fortunately he was able to restart the engines @600ft :rolleyes: (Brown pants ...)

www.latimes.com

Boeing Can't Explain How Delta Pilot Made Error

A Boeing Co. official said Thursday that there is no ready explanation of how a veteran airline captain activated the wrong controls--pulling two round fuel cutoff knobs instead of pushing a square button two inches away--and caused a Delta Boeing 767 to plunge within 600 feet of the Pacific after…
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top