Air India plane crash

It’s hard to believe that the pilot monitoring wouldn’t have noticed that the pilot flying or vice versa switched those things off. Those switches appear to be large enough and require more moves than just flipping them down like a light switch. You would think it would get noticed pretty quickly if someone was fiddling with them. “Hey! WTF are you doing?” would seem like a more appropriate and believable response from the pilot then “Why did you switch them off?” Kind of tough to really buy into this unless that airline has a negative cockpit culture where no one questions the CA.
 
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SeanD said:
It’s hard to believe that the pilot monitoring wouldn’t have noticed that the pilot flying or vice versa switched those things off. Those switches appear to be large enough and require more moves than just flipping them down like a light switch. You would think it would get noticed pretty quickly if someone was fiddling with them. “Hey! WTF are you doing?” would seem like a more appropriate and believable response from the pilot then “Why did you switch them off?” Kind of tough to really buy into this unless that airline has a negative cockpit culture where no one questions the CA.
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You’d be surprised how much you can be tunneled in. I have literally never seen the captain raise the gear on my legs and it’s what, like a foot away from my PFD. Something that far out of a dude’s field of view, when he’s focused 100% on the runway and then transitioning to the FD or the HUD as the case may be? You’d never see it.
 
SeanD said:
It’s hard to believe that the pilot monitoring wouldn’t have noticed that the pilot flying or vice versa switched those things off. Those switches appear to be large enough and require more moves than just flipping them down like a light switch. You would think it would get noticed pretty quickly if someone was fiddling with them. “Hey! WTF are you doing?” would seem like a more appropriate and believable response from the pilot then “Why did you switch them off?” Kind of tough to really buy into unless that airline has a negative cockpit culture where no one questions the CA.
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If you're focused on rotation and not slamming the tail (does that apply to the 787?) pitching for the acceleration speed watching the airspeed for flap retraction I doubt I'd notice it. In the 737 this is behind my forward view. I'd have to look at the other pilot in order to get in in my field of view on the 737.

These switches are also muscle memory for me. As I imagine they were for the 787 captain. He could easily flip them closed in a second or less without moving a great deal. You would possibly notice some movement that wasn't typical from the other pilot, but it would be no different than when they switched radio frequencies. Or moved the flaps.
 
SeanD said:
Are they saying it might have been intentional?
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Who TF knows… really too early in the process to do anything more than speculate. Kinda seems like 3 possibilities?
1. Accidental (what else would someone have been trying to do down there? All I see in that neighborhood is the stab cutouts)
2. Intentional for reasons unknown
3. Switches didn’t actually move, but something caused an electrical signal to make the airplane think they moved.
Wouldn’t even venture a guess as to what’s likely.
 
SeanD said:
It’s hard to believe that the pilot monitoring wouldn’t have noticed that the pilot flying or vice versa switched those things off. Those switches appear to be large enough and require more moves than just flipping them down like a light switch. You would think it would get noticed pretty quickly if someone was fiddling with them. “Hey! WTF are you doing?” would seem like a more appropriate and believable response from the pilot then “Why did you switch them off?” Kind of tough to really buy into this unless that airline has a negative cockpit culture where no one questions the CA.
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3 seconds after liftoff? I highly doubt PF eyes are on the rear center console. That’s the point to transition from outside to inside PFD.
 
Roger Roger said:
You’d be surprised how much you can be tunneled in. I have literally never seen the captain raise the gear on my legs and it’s what, like a foot away from my PFD. Something that far out of a dude’s field of view, when he’s focused 100% on the runway and then transitioning to the FD or the HUD as the case may be? You’d never see it.
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A normal thing... sure it will fade into the background at rotation, but something out of the normal pattern? You'll see that in a heartbeat, even if you are fixated on the rotation and liftoff.

I had a captain on the 330 retract my flaps at 200 feet on takeoff once. I saw his hands moving in my peripheral visuon and as soon as I heard the lever click I knew what he'd done. I said the same thing that the Air India FO said ("why did you do that").

Fortunately the flaps move slowly on the 330 and I was able to get the nose down, go TOGO pretty quickly, and the RO was on it, and reached in and put the flaps back to 1 before the flaps moved much (and certainly before the slats moved).

The captain swore I called for flaps zero (which both the RO and I were certain I hadn't done) and blamed me for the whole thing. Although even if I had called for it, he should have checked the speed and said no.

It was a very quiet 10 hour flight home.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
3 seconds after liftoff? I highly doubt PF eyes are on the rear center console. That’s the point to transition from outside to inside PFD.
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Interesting. If it’s VMC I’m still looking around outside during liftoff and climb, around the cockpit, a crosscheck at the altimeter if there’s something to be done at a given altitude or a turn coming up. Glance down to confirm a radio freq if the PM makes a call after a freq change and there’s no immediate answer. My point is, it’s pretty relaxed while still staying alert, and things the PM does, or doesn’t do, are noticed.

IMC, a different story indeed, moreso to what you wrote above here, and a little more of a tunneled vision to the instruments.
 
MikeD said:
Interesting. If it’s VMC I’m still looking around outside during liftoff and climb, around the cockpit, a crosscheck at the altimeter if there’s something to be done at a given altitude or a turn coming up. Glance down to confirm a radio freq if the PM makes a call after a freq change and there’s no immediate answer. My point is, it’s pretty relaxed while still staying alert, and things the PM does, or doesn’t do, are noticed.

IMC, a different story indeed, moreso to what you wrote above here, and a little more of a tunneled vision to the instruments.
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I get that, I’m simply referring to that initial rotation. 3 seconds after liftoff, we aren’t even at the proper climb attitude yet.

Our shop guidance for pitch rate:

-700 = 3 deg/second, 5 seconds to 15 degrees.

-800/900/MAX8/9 = 2 deg/second, 7.5 seconds to 15 degrees.



As CA? I’m in the HUD for the rotation and watching for a potential tail strike cue. Again, only dealing with the first 0-5/7 seconds after liftoff. Climb out after that, I do all the things you said.
 
BobDDuck said:
A normal thing... sure it will fade into the background at rotation, but something out of the normal pattern? You'll see that in a heartbeat, even if you are fixated on the rotation and liftoff.

I had a captain on the 330 retract my flaps at 200 feet on takeoff once. I saw his hands moving in my peripheral visuon and as soon as I heard the lever click I knew what he'd done. I said the same thing that the Air India FO said ("why did you do that").

Fortunately the flaps move slowly on the 330 and I was able to get the nose down, go TOGO pretty quickly, and the RO was on it, and reached in and put the flaps back to 1 before the flaps moved much (and certainly before the slats moved).

The captain swore I called for flaps zero (which both the RO and I were certain I hadn't done) and blamed me for the whole thing. Although even if I had called for it, he should have checked the speed and said no.

It was a very quiet 10 hour flight home.
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This accident, and your story, re-iterates my dislike for the hand hoverers of this industry. Grrrrrrr
 
The FAA issued Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) No. NM-18-33 on December 17, 2018, regarding the potential disengagement of the fuel control switch locking feature. This SAIB was issued based on reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The airworthiness concern was not considered an unsafe condition that would warrant airworthiness directive (AD) by the FAA. The fuel control switch design, including the locking feature, is similar on various Boeing airplane models including part number 4TL837-3D which is fitted in B787-8 aircraft VT-ANB. As per the information from Air India, the suggested inspections were not carried out as the SAIB was advisory and not mandatory. The scrutiny of maintenance records revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023.
However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB.
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I get that the fuel selector thing is a bit sus but it also seems like there is potentially a ticking time bomb here. Especially in countries that may not have an high a standard for safety.

If the switches are installed improperly that would just be a matter of time before an incident at best and an accident in the worst case scenario.
 
BobDDuck said:
A normal thing... sure it will fade into the background at rotation, but something out of the normal pattern? You'll see that in a heartbeat, even if you are fixated on the rotation and liftoff.

I had a captain on the 330 retract my flaps at 200 feet on takeoff once. I saw his hands moving in my peripheral visuon and as soon as I heard the lever click I knew what he'd done. I said the same thing that the Air India FO said ("why did you do that").

Fortunately the flaps move slowly on the 330 and I was able to get the nose down, go TOGO pretty quickly, and the RO was on it, and reached in and put the flaps back to 1 before the flaps moved much (and certainly before the slats moved).

The captain swore I called for flaps zero (which both the RO and I were certain I hadn't done) and blamed me for the whole thing. Although even if I had called for it, he should have checked the speed and said no.

It was a very quiet 10 hour flight home.
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You’re probably right, even for someone like me who is average on a good day.
 
SeanD said:
It’s hard to believe that the pilot monitoring wouldn’t have noticed that the pilot flying or vice versa switched those things off. Those switches appear to be large enough and require more moves than just flipping them down like a light switch. You would think it would get noticed pretty quickly if someone was fiddling with them. “Hey! WTF are you doing?” would seem like a more appropriate and believable response from the pilot then “Why did you switch them off?” Kind of tough to really buy into this unless that airline has a negative cockpit culture where no one questions the CA.
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PF is heads up, looking through either a HUD, through the windshield or at least looking at the PFD. PF had his or her hands on the thrust levers which actually blocks the field of view to the fuel cutoff switches. That is right around when the cockpit gets to start handsy with gear, frequency changes and so many other things. I could easily see how this wouldn't get noticed. You aren't expecting anyone to do that, so you aren't looking for it. I have to tell myself to look to look at stuff the PM is calling out after I call for it to verify it but you aren't referencing the switches and in no way, are expecting them to be touched unless you have an emergency which might be never for so many crews.

I can easily see myself not noticing this for sure. PF moves his/her head to the outside window for a split second and boom.
 
Inverted said:
PF is heads up, looking through either a HUD, through the windshield or at least looking at the PFD. PF had his or her hands on the thrust levers which actually blocks the field of view to the fuel cutoff switches. That is right around when the cockpit gets to start handsy with gear, frequency changes and so many other things. I could easily see how this wouldn't get noticed. You aren't expecting anyone to do that, so you aren't looking for it. I have to tell myself to look to look at stuff the PM is calling out after I call for it to verify it but you aren't referencing the switches and in no way, are expecting them to be touched unless you have an emergency which might be never for so many crews.

I can easily see myself not noticing this for sure. PF moves his/her head to the outside window for a split second and boom.
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I’m assuming with the FO being PF, it’s the CAs hands on the thrust levers for takeoff.
 
ASpilot2be said:
The hard part of long haul flying is getting comfortable in the seat. I am two years in, and finally getting comfortable. But I am only in the seat maybe once a month.
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One of my old FOs went to your shop on the 76. It’s been a rough enough adjustment for me going from Lear to Guppy flying, often, 3 legs a day and getting better than half of the landings. I can’t imagine how hard it is to get proficient going straight to a wide body and only getting a handful of landings a month.
 
MikeD said:
Did the CA shut them off unknowingly, not being sure he did but it’s the first thing the FO suspected because both engines rolled back?
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I'm probably below average at figuring out what's going on in this hoopty, much less a 787, but I'd think that if the engines both started spooling down on takeoff, my first assumption would not be the fuel levers being cut. I don't know *what* my first assumption would be, but a pilot doing that would be so unfathomable to me, I don't know if it would cross my mind until I had a moment to process and look (at which point I'd actually see them in cutout rather than just assuming). Dunno, maybe that's just me though.

Not being familiar at all with this type (other than the fact that our start levers look the same), is there anything that would feel similar in a similar location that would be part of some normal flow? I know folks have shut HYD 2 off in the guppy when they thought they were turning the engine heaters off. I'm feeling like there is nothing comparable in that location of the cockpit, or during that phase of flight, but I don't know what I don't know.
 
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