Air France's New Airline For Millennials

wheelsup said:
I would bet, at least from knowing those that have/do, that the reason people still live at home is because of a lack of a better paying job and the distorted housing markets in most areas.

When I was in high school 20 years ago I had a job at a grocery store paying $10/hr in 90's money. Same job today pays around $9 (I was curious and looked it up last year).

A lot of upward mobility has been removed due to the boomers taking two fairly large hits in 2001-2003 and 2008-2010. They aren't retiring as fast as previous generations simply because they can't, despite social security and about 50% having access to pensions, because a good percentage of them don't have a dime for retirement saved with the vast majority of their net worth tied to their primary residence.

We saw a mini version of this with age 60 -> 65.

Despite the press, student loans really aren't that big of a deal and aren't as large a burden as the media makes them out to be for most graduates. Some took on huge debts for not very useful degrees (how useful was an AeroSci degree In 2003 when I graduated or 2008-2011?) but they are by far the minority.

I read an interesting article several years ago about a chemical engineer who graduated in the 70's and instead went to work as a janitor sweeping the floors of a steel mill - because it paid significantly more than using his engineering degree! Those types of middle income jobs just aren't there for graduates these days who either get lucky and land a good job in their field or must become part of the 'lost' society, never able to gain a foothold and constantly moving from low paying job to low paying job.

This is probably the best environment for pilots since maybe the 60's with a huge amount of upward movement and profits industry wide. However it won't last long as the single thing we can thank for our wages is cabotage which could go away at the drop of a hat. Also the ULCC market will continue cutting into legacy business at they build their hub and spoke networks just like is happening in Europe. Even so, ULCC jobs pay well compared to the rest of the population even if it comes to that.
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When I left collage in the early 90s jobs for aerospace engineers were non existent. I transferred from the AF reserves into the regular Army. I came home from Flight training to find the department head, a guy with a PHD in engineering flipping burgers at McDonald's. I was too embarrassed to say hi to him. This was a guy who was highly educated and very respected in the Industry. He got me my internship at Cape Canaveral. Was really sad to,see him flipping burgers. But you gotta do what you have to do.

Shortly after the dot.bomb days when people were waking up to the scams and putting down the cool aid there were a lot of whiners in my generation who had high salaries at dot.bombs that never turned a profit. The rode the VCs high on the hog till the hog died and laid around complaining about it. I remember people going on national TV complaining about how they couldn't find jobs. I remember a really famous interview where a woman was told their were jobs available in another state if she would move, she said she didn't want to move and loose her house. She ended up loosing her home to foreclosure.

There are idiots in all generations and their are people who rise to the challenge. It's a choice you make. Either you find a way or you live in your moms basement.
 
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knot4u said:
The jobs are out there, it might take some effort to get them. I've heard young people don't like internships because the pay is beneath them, in the past interns worked for free voluntarily as a means to get their foot in the door. Apparently those days are behind us.
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Is it such a bad thing if people are actually compensated for their labor? If those days are behind us, it seems like a good thing to me. It will benefit the economy at large too, if people that would have been unpaid interns are now paid and have income to spend, thereby creating consumer demand.

It is ironic how so many people claim Millennials have a sense of entitlement, and yet companies that "hire" unpaid interns believe they are entitled to free labor.
 
av8tr1 said:
When I left collage in the early 90s jobs for aerospace engineers were non existent. I transferred from the AF reserves into the regular Army. I came home from Flight training to find the department head, a guy with a PHD in engineering flipping burgers at McDonald's. I was too embarrassed to say hi to him. This was a guy who was highly educated and very respected in the Industry. He got me my internship at Cape Canaveral. Was really sad to,see him flipping burgers. But you gotta do what you have to do.

Shortly after the dot.bomb days when people were waking up to the scams and putting down the cool aid there were a lot of whiners in my generation who had high salaries at dot.bombs that never turned a profit. The rode the VCs high on the hog till the hog died and laid around complaining about it. I remember people going on national TV complaining about how they couldn't find jobs. I remember a really famous interview where a woman was told their were jobs available in another state if she would move, she said she didn't want to move and loose her house. She ended up loosing her home to foreclosure.

Thier are idiots in all generations and their are people who rise to the challenge. It's a choice you make. Either you find a way or you live in your moms basement.
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No offense. There>thier or their, how do you graduate from a collection of pictures? Sorry, a good point can be degraded if the presentation is somehow corrupted.
 
knot4u said:
The jobs are out there, it might take some effort to get them. I've heard young people don't like internships because the pay is beneath them, in the past interns worked for free voluntarily as a means to get their foot in the door. Apparently those days are behind us.
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I'd also like to point out that if companies can't find unpaid interns and must start paying them, that is simply the Free Market at work. Companies are not entitled to labor for free or below the rate the market will bear any more than Millennials are entitled to decent employment or affordable housing.

I have never taken an unpaid internship, and never will unless there is no other option. I make no apology for that fact, although admittedly I am fortunate that it hasn't been necessary to do so to get where I am in my career.
 
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Yakob said:
Is it such a bad thing if people are actually compensated for their labor? If those days are behind us, it seems like a good thing to me. It will benefit the economy at large too, if people that would have been unpaid interns are now paid and have income to spend, thereby creating consumer demand.

It is ironic how so many people claim Millennials have a sense of entitlement, and yet companies that "hire" unpaid interns believe they are entitled to free labor.
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It's not about working for nothing or almost nothing, internships can give a person an honest view of the field they are aspiring to join and they can gain valuable experience and maybe more importantly contacts that can help when/if they graduate.
 
Forgot to add, an intern rarely contributes enough to validate any money considering the fact that they're reliant on established employees to learn from and that slows everything down. Once in a while you'll find a diamond in the rough, but that's the exception not the rule.
 
knot4u said:
It's not about working for nothing or almost nothing, internships can give a person an honest view of the field they are aspiring to join and they can gain valuable experience and maybe more importantly contacts that can help when/if they graduate.
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knot4u said:
Forgot to add, an intern rarely contributes enough to validate any money considering the fact that they're reliant on established employees to learn from and that slows everything down. Once in a while you'll find a diamond in the rough, but that's the exception not the rule.
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In theory yes, but I suspect that this is often abused and interns are used to get work done for free. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7523214/Interns-exploited-by-companies.html Of course that probably depends on the industry and the individual company. I would agree that, when unpaid internships are done properly, it can be a way for new entrants to that profession to gain real-world experience before they are actually valuable as employees.

It is also ironic to argue in favor of unpaid internships while criticizing people who live with their parents as adults. If they have to do without income during the unpaid internship, obviously it will be difficult for them to afford their own housing.
 
Yakob said:
In theory yes, but I suspect that this is often abused and interns are used to get work done for free. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7523214/Interns-exploited-by-companies.html Of course that probably depends on the industry and the individual company. I would agree that, when unpaid internships are done properly, it can be a way for new entrants to that profession to gain real-world experience before they are actually valuable as employees.

It is also ironic to argue in favor of unpaid internships while criticizing people who live with their parents as adults. If they have to do without income during the unpaid internship, obviously it will be difficult for them to afford their own housing.
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It's not ironic, most kids that apply for and receive internships aren't financing it, their parents are. I'm also not arguing in favor of free internships, just saying that was how it was done for some in the past. I'm far from an elitist, I'm a dirty skateboarder from the late 80's.
 
knot4u said:
It's not ironic, most kids that apply for and receive internships aren't financing it, their parents are. I'm also not arguing in favor of free internships, just saying that was how it was done for some in the past. I'm far from an elitist, I'm a dirty skateboarder from the late 80's.
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Well then that's another reason it's a good thing if unpaid internships are going away. It would be a shame for professions where you need internships to get a foot in the door were only open to people whose parents can afford to finance it. Of course that applies to many other situations too, since many parents pay for their children to attend college, trade school, etc., so those without well-off parents will always be at a disadvantage in the job market.
 
knot4u said:
No offense. There>thier or their, how do you graduate from a collection of pictures? Sorry, a good point can be degraded if the presentation is somehow corrupted.
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I studied engineering not English. And I'm really bad at both. You'll have to give me some leeway.....I fly helicopters. (And trying to participate in this thread via cell phone with a really chitty speel check).

Helicopter pilots....lemmings of the aviation industry.
 
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Yakob said:
Well then that's another reason it's a good thing if unpaid internships are going away. It would be a shame for professions where you need internships to get a foot in the door were only open to people whose parents can afford to finance it. Of course that applies to many other situations too, since many parents pay for their children to attend college, trade school, etc., so those without well-off parents will always be at a disadvantage in the job market.
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I never had an internship or rich parents. I've had a longer list of jobs than I'd like to admit, most paid very little. My first apartment cost $300/month in Southern California, I'll let you imagine the neighborhood. I drove 60+ miles each way to my entry level job as a mechanic. It sucked, but I kept going, eventually a better opportunity showed up and I took it, and the next one and the next one. I doubt my years working on a crane mean much to anyone, nor would the fact that screen printing came easy to me. Everyone has to make their own road, it seems as if the millennials want the road paved for them.
 
knot4u said:
I never had an internship or rich parents. I've had a longer list of jobs than I'd like to admit, most paid very little. My first apartment cost $300/month in Southern California, I'll let you imagine the neighborhood. I drove 60+ miles each way to my entry level job as a mechanic. It sucked, but I kept going, eventually a better opportunity showed up and I took it, and the next one and the next one. I doubt my years working on a crane mean much to anyone, nor would the fact that screen printing came easy to me. Everyone has to make their own road, it seems as if the millennials want the road paved for them.
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Except for some times that "better opportunity" never comes - or it disappears in front of you. When I got sick 10 years of hard work more or less evaporated in front of me.

The road WAS paid for the boomers - they drove over it for 40 years without maintaining it and now they're shocked when I bitch about how hard it is to keep the front end in alignment because of all the potholes. All I want is the opportunity to support my family and own a home without having to live with my parents. Right now that is really difficult for a lot of people.
 
ppragman said:
Except for some times that "better opportunity" never comes - or it disappears in front of you. When I got sick 10 years of hard work more or less evaporated in front of me.

The road WAS paid for the boomers - they drove over it for 40 years without maintaining it and now they're shocked when I bitch about how hard it is to keep the front end in alignment because of all the potholes. All I want is the opportunity to support my family and own a home without having to live with my parents. Right now that is really difficult for a lot of people.
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Supporting a family and owning a home are earned, if you can't support a family you shouldn't have started one. It's not up to everyone but yourself to find opportunities. This is the real world and nobody cares.
 
knot4u said:
I never had an internship or rich parents. I've had a longer list of jobs than I'd like to admit, most paid very little. My first apartment cost $300/month in Southern California, I'll let you imagine the neighborhood. I drove 60+ miles each way to my entry level job as a mechanic. It sucked, but I kept going, eventually a better opportunity showed up and I took it, and the next one and the next one. I doubt my years working on a crane mean much to anyone, nor would the fact that screen printing came easy to me. Everyone has to make their own road, it seems as if the millennials want the road paved for them.
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I never meant to imply your parents did pave your way for you. I'm sure most people would like the road paved for them, but I think most people, including Millennials, realize that is unrealistic. I was born in 1991 so I fall pretty much right in the middle of the Millennial generation, and while I have certainly been lucky in many ways, I have always worked hard to "pave my road" as you put it. I don't want to start a "hard work olympics" but before my first break as a pilot I used to work a good 60 to 80 hours a week at multiple low-paying jobs, and averaged about 5 hours of sleep a night. Admittedly I was fortunate to live in Iowa then which is relatively cheap, and which was not hit particularly hard by the 2008 recession. After that I took a job at a sketchy aerial survey company, that required me to leave on a long, indefinite "deployment" at very short notice. I've also had numerous setbacks along the way, such as when I was in an airplane accident 4.5 years ago. And none of that is exceptional- I know plenty of other people my age who are doing or have done similar things.

Of course there are plenty of people who don't even have the opportunity for any sort of remunerative employment, let alone 80 hours a week, and more and more will find themselves in that situation in the near future as many jobs will soon be automated out of existence.

knot4u said:
Supporting a family and owning a home are earned, if you can't support a family you shouldn't have started one. It's not up to everyone but yourself to find opportunities. This is the real world and nobody cares.
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Perhaps, although plenty of people seem to think Millennials owe society babies whether we can afford them not. But of course we're still the ones who have sense of entitlement:

http://www.startribune.com/u-s-birt...n=dkw&kwp_0=458477&kwp_4=1677141&kwp_1=720103
 
I can't care less if you have kids or not. I like the angle though, "We need to have sex more because of societal pressure.".
 
Before I got hired by the FAA I was going to take a job at ARINC on Long Island. It paid $18/hour (just under $38k/year). Sounded good. Then I started doing apartment searches. $18/hr on LI, after rent for a basement apartment that may or may not have been legal, and my child support payments, left me with negative $175 at the end of the month before spending a dime on anything else.

Lots of people live with their parents even if they do have job simply because the housing market, both rent and own, has become ricockulously inflated even after 2008.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Before I got hired by the FAA I was going to take a job at ARINC on Long Island. It paid $18/hour (just under $38k/year). Sounded good. Then I started doing apartment searches. $18/hr on LI, after rent for a basement apartment that may or may not have been legal, and my child support payments, left me with negative $175 at the end of the month before spending a dime on anything else.

Lots of people live with their parents even if they do have job simply because the housing market, both rent and own, has become ricockulously inflated even after 2008.
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Yknow the boomers get a lot of flak for driving up home prices but for the kind of places millenials would be buying (starters homes, condos, etc) it looks to me more like Gen Xers that are the problem.
 
knot4u said:
Supporting a family and owning a home are earned, if you can't support a family you shouldn't have started one. It's not up to everyone but yourself to find opportunities. This is the real world and nobody cares.
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I had an awesome career and amazing lifestyle when I started my family, and made enough where my wife didn't have to work that is until I got sick 5 years after I met my wife and 4 years after we had kids.

You can • right off with that mindset. It ain't just "pull yourself up by your bootstraps," and guess what, it ain't that easy out there. But sure just "work harder" at your $10/hr job will solve the systemic problems with poverty in this country, I'm sure. Real wages haven't kept up with inflation in how long?

There are systemic problems with how the system functions (or doesn't) right now, and I wasn't aware of just how cutthroat it was until my lucrative career was no longer feasible. Thank god I had family to lean on, because we're it not for them, my wife and kids would be in a shelter.

But whatever, hurrdurr entitled millennial. I truly hope that the road ahead of you is forever paved and easy - it should be a lot easier for everyone out there. Poverty isn't ennobling and adversity doesn't make you better.

The glory days of flying are going on right now, but it will come to an end someday - and when you do face trouble I hope the system is set up to help you back on your feet and society doesn't try to brand you some entitled freeloading doofus for doing so. I hope your wife has the option to buy avacado for her toast with the WIC money when you one day need it.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Lots of people live with their parents even if they do have job simply because the housing market, both rent and own, has become ricockulously inflated even after 2008.
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http://www.peninsulapinesapts.com/Floor-plans.aspx

Whats unreasonable about a 290sqft studio going for $1900/mth? Nuts!

Before the current gig, I used to live up there and it was just crazy. The dream of home ownership in certain parts of this country is essentially dead for anyone that isn't making in the mid 6 Figures. Most people I know from high school that have stayed in the area still live with their parents because they aren't able to afford the absolutely crushing rent on top of the crushing student loan debt they have from getting almost any kind of degree.
 
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