Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule

"They" were generally able to wiggle it in as "fixed wing" with some classification gymnastics, but with the redesignation AV8B time and Osprey isn't fixed at all.

I know of zero people who have caught heat at interviews for the bulk of their time being Harrier time. I know Harrier guys at almost every major (except United for some reason, probably the Hogan:p). Most of them have been hired in the past three years. Osprey guys are still fooked.
 
We left early voluntarily...and like I said I know 20+ myself included that went to a regional in the past 3 years....and I had 2100 hours when I separated
Just so the narrative in my mind is accurate, how much of your time was as Aircraft Commander?
 
In my experience, as a former career fighter guy now with a couple years of 121 airline flying in my logbook, the average day in the 121 world does not require nearly the same level of effort or airmanship that most of my flying in the military did because of the mission and tactics factor. In general, what comprises most of the judgment and decisionmaking in a typical airline day is about 10-30% of what was required for a typical air-to-air or air-to-ground tactics mission. Other guys in other areas of the military flying world might have different opinions on where that line is, obviously, based on their own experience in their own mission types.

Don't take it as a slight -- it objectively is what it is. Nobody is saying it to be disrespectful (and I don't think anyone would take what you wrote that way, either), and nobody is doing it to measure wangs or diminish someone else's knowledge or skill. Even within the military flying world we have these divisions between different mission sets and aircraft types.

It is rarely a question of talent, it is almost always a matter of experience.

Most civilian-experienced pilots just don't have the perspective to know, and unfortunately whenever someone with the perspective of having lived in both worlds tries to explain that difference it comes off as arrogance (regardless of intent).

I'll be the first one to tell you that my first day of IOE in the airlines was a total circus act -- despite years of experience in intense environments, I felt way behind what was going on with even just a simple revenue flight. But, obviously, with experience all of this became much easier. Again, not about talent...just about experience.

Either way, this whole discussion is a great microcosm of the difference in perspective personified by the quotes in the original posted article.

Take this in the worst way possible, mostly because you've only good enough to fly boxes around these days, but...

What you and Mike are saying is 100% accurate when it comes to being an FO. When you upgrade, that's when the flying becomes assumed and your new job is accomplishing everything else necessary to move the operation forward, or stop it.

As an FO at a lot of shops, your entire job really is "clear right, you're right." As a captain you've got to interface with a whole lot of people to make sure everything is being done correctly. At the regional level, almost nothing is done correctly, and you become a one man band who is a jack of all trades and master of everything. If you're not, your ATP doesn't last very long.

It was honestly shocking to me the transition from just being a pilot to being in charge. I had sat next to captains for all these years and never understood just how deep the job goes. So with that, I can understand the perspective that you two have because I largely believed the same things for a very long people of time.

I'm here to tell you that I was wrong, and you guys are wrong. But don't worry, you've got the best company with you.

I've even got a really good example of this that Hacker had the pleasure of sitting through that I'll share with you guys over beers one day.
 
When you upgrade, that's when the flying becomes assumed and your new job is accomplishing everything else necessary to move the operation forward, or stop it.

Completely right, no question that there is a difference between the seats that is enormous. That being said, I made the statement with an understanding of the difference.

I came to the airlines having already been "the Captain" in my military roles for years. I'm totally aware of all of that ancillary stuff that you're referring to because I had those same burdens in my job as a Flight Lead and as a Mission Commander. All of the non-tangibles you're talking about -- and you are 100% correct about these, no doubt -- also exist in the flight-suit wearing world. In referring to the "you don't know what you don't know" aspect, having been there in a previous life I can observe what those other hidden tasks are out of the guy I'm flying with even if those tasks aren't directly observable in the execution of my job in the right seat.

I may not actually have any of those responsibilities now, but I certainly know it exists and understand the burden of decisionmaking, etc, that it puts on the guy whose name is at the bottom of the release.

My challenge to you (and everyone) is this: find a former military pilot (Flight lead, if a tactical guy, or Aircraft Commander if a multi-pilot heavy guy) who is now a 121 Captain who will testify that he thinks his military job was equal to or lesser in intensity/demand than his 121 responsibilities. Folks who have done both are the only ones who are really in a position to make a direct comparison.

I pledge to you and everyone else that I'll be the first one to very publicly say "I'm wrong" if my opinion changes on the issue when I become wiser and more experienced in the world.
 
Quite right.

IMO this is a result of poorly-chosen quotes from a General who isn't very smart about the 121 flying world in an article that doesn't say very much about anything except that the Air Force and the airlines are talking about...something.

You did read the article, right? The USAF and the airline reps were meeting to talk about the fact that both have personnel problems. Adjusting the 1500 hour rule doesn't help the Air Force - 7th paragraph from the bottom spells that out.

I think there's a disconnect here and I suspect I understand why - Goldfein's quote at the conference was talking about the airline industry's issue with 1500 hours in parallel to the USAF's own retention problem.
 
I know one idea that was/is being considered and it's not going to make regional guys happy. It was that active military pilots "pre" interview, and if successful, be given a seniority number. That way they are tied to that airline. It would remove the imperative to separate early to get seniority.
 
I know one idea that was/is being considered and it's not going to make regional guys happy. It was that active military pilots "pre" interview, and if successful, be given a seniority number. That way they are tied to that airline. It would remove the imperative to separate early to get seniority.
i'm 100% against this
 
Take this in the worst way possible, mostly because you've only good enough to fly boxes around these days, but...

What you and Mike are saying is 100% accurate when it comes to being an FO. When you upgrade, that's when the flying becomes assumed and your new job is accomplishing everything else necessary to move the operation forward, or stop it.

As an FO at a lot of shops, your entire job really is "clear right, you're right." As a captain you've got to interface with a whole lot of people to make sure everything is being done correctly. At the regional level, almost nothing is done correctly, and you become a one man band who is a jack of all trades and master of everything. If you're not, your ATP doesn't last very long.

It was honestly shocking to me the transition from just being a pilot to being in charge. I had sat next to captains for all these years and never understood just how deep the job goes. So with that, I can understand the perspective that you two have because I largely believed the same things for a very long people of time.

I'm here to tell you that I was wrong, and you guys are wrong. But don't worry, you've got the best company with you.

I've even got a really good example of this that Hacker had the pleasure of sitting through that I'll share with you guys over beers one day.

Read hackers reply.

Do you honestly believe that all we do is fly, and we don't have to interface with people or other systems or deal with outside issues while inflight or on a mission? Or manage other assets? They may not be the exact same issues an airline captain deals with, but the concept is the same. Believe me.
 
Quite right.

IMO this is a result of poorly-chosen quotes from a General who isn't very smart about the 121 flying world in an article that doesn't say very much about anything except that the Air Force and the airlines are talking about...something.

IMG_2812.JPG
 
I know of zero people who have caught heat at interviews for the bulk of their time being Harrier time. I know Harrier guys at almost every major (except United for some reason, probably the Hogan:p). Most of them have been hired in the past three years. Osprey guys are still fooked.

We'll have to fix that glich.......:)
 
Just wait until I get my "pre-interview" and my seniority number. Then fix away.

Almost had a chance to fly these back in the day, speaking of cool Marine jets. Back when we were sending AF guys to joint USN squadrons. Went instead to another guy in my squadron, and I was supposed to be headed to the OA-37 instead, until that got cnx'd and changed to the 117.

image.jpg
 
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I volunteered to go to the Prowler exchange, but when they later told me AF guys weren't allowed to carrier qual, I withdrew my name.
 
Carrier qual without a HUD sounds like a big cup of NOPE for me. Likewise with ridge line crossings and pretty much anything over 30 degrees AOB below 500'.
 
I know of zero people who have caught heat at interviews for the bulk of their time being Harrier time. I know Harrier guys at almost every major (except United for some reason, probably the Hogan:p). Most of them have been hired in the past three years. Osprey guys are still fooked.

Check your time stamp. Remember I said this was a more recent change.

Does anyone read anymore?
 
I volunteered to go to the Prowler exchange, but when they later told me AF guys weren't allowed to carrier qual, I withdrew my name.

They stopped doing that just prior to my applying, as a guy who left my squadron earlier for that assignment was one of the last, if not the last, of the AF guys to get carrier qualed, day only obviously. Had something to do with the (then) 4 VAQ squadrons that were billed as joint-expeditionary, to not be designated boat squadrons and to be land based only.
 
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