Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule

[Hacker15e]

Let me clarify. I have the utmost respect for military aviators and what you do. And, having flown with several military aviators, I have no doubts about your flying abilities. I just wanted to point out that we all have something that we can learn from each other. The idea that the civilian world is somehow "less than" rubs me the wrong way.

In my experience, as a former career fighter guy now with a couple years of 121 airline flying in my logbook, the average day in the 121 world does not require nearly the same level of effort or airmanship that most of my flying in the military did because of the mission and tactics factor. In general, what comprises most of the judgment and decisionmaking in a typical airline day is about 10-30% of what was required for a typical air-to-air or air-to-ground tactics mission. Other guys in other areas of the military flying world might have different opinions on where that line is, obviously, based on their own experience in their own mission types.

Don't take it as a slight -- it objectively is what it is. Nobody is saying it to be disrespectful (and I don't think anyone would take what you wrote that way, either), and nobody is doing it to measure wangs or diminish someone else's knowledge or skill. Even within the military flying world we have these divisions between different mission sets and aircraft types.

It is rarely a question of talent, it is almost always a matter of experience.

Most civilian-experienced pilots just don't have the perspective to know, and unfortunately whenever someone with the perspective of having lived in both worlds tries to explain that difference it comes off as arrogance (regardless of intent).

I'll be the first one to tell you that my first day of IOE in the airlines was a total circus act -- despite years of experience in intense environments, I felt way behind what was going on with even just a simple revenue flight. But, obviously, with experience all of this became much easier. Again, not about talent...just about experience.

Either way, this whole discussion is a great microcosm of the difference in perspective personified by the quotes in the original posted article.

 

[MikeD]

Let me clarify. I have the utmost respect for military aviators and what you do. And, having flown with several military aviators, I have no doubts about your flying abilities. I just wanted to point out that we all have something that we can learn from each other. The idea that the civilian world is somehow "less than" rubs me the wrong way.

The actual flying the plane is generally the same, takeoff/landing/etc, even a high speed/workload single seat tactical jet. What separates the two is everything other than "general admin". The cockpit management you talk of is part of the basic CRM involved with the general job of getting from A to B.

For us, getting from A to B is assumed. It's employing the aircraft as a weapons system.....beyond just getting from A to B and beyond just the CRM in doing so....that sets apart. From managing a formation, to evaluating current and projected threats, to avoiding being seen by radar systems and figuring out whether you need to avoid/suppress/kill them and how you're going to do it, to the same with enemy aircraft, to what tactics you will use when you get to the target area, or changing them on the fly when the threat or Wx changes, to avoiding midair's with other friendly or enemy aircraft, including helos if low level, to avoiding hitting the ground or anything attached to it while doing all the above if low level. To many more tactical considerations and needs, all part and parcel from just getting the jet from A to B and the CRM involved in that when the cockpit door closes and the jet is in a comfortable climb/cruise/descent. Much more easy to get task saturated real quick, than only having to worry about getting from A to B while accomplishing basic mundane tasks, that may have a bit of excitement or difference from time to time.

It's not a superiority thing in an ego sense. But the jobs are quite different in what they entail, and hence why not everyone in UPT goes a tactical route or single seat route at graduation.

 

[Richman]

I've lost count of how many friends have left the uniform to go VFR direct to the majors or FEDEX. Somehow they made it work, without the "civilian ab-initio". I think you have been talking to the wrong people…….particularly those who tell you they are/were "honchos".

You missed my point:

The Military guys responsible for talking to their airline counterparts, which is the subject of this thread...ASSUME that civilian ab-initio programs, like what they have in Europe or Asia, are equivalent to the military programs because they both take people from zero to hero. That is the ONLY thing they have in common.

Nothing can be further from the truth. One is designed to produce an effective combat asset, and will spend whatever capital is necessary to further that goal, and the other is designed to meet a regulatory requirement at an "optimized" cost.

They have little or no understanding of the civilian pipeline in the US and are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison.

The 1,500 hour rule is a great example. Why was it that for decades, 1,500 hours was the gateway into any "real" aviation job? It's because the industry (probably heavily encouraged by the insurance guys) recognized that this was the inflection point where most guys and gals attained the funnel with which to find their butt. Even the Feds recognized this with Part 135 IFR rules, which requires a similar amount of time (which, by the way, has been around forever). In the civilian world, getting 1,500 takes a bit of time...whether by accident or design, it is a multi-year vetting process. That means dealing with aircraft, maintenance, passengers/students/freight, management, the elements...the whole host of environmental factors that goes into doing the job. If a pilot is going to have trouble, more than likely he'll run afoul of one of these items at some point. This is the kind of experience and vetting you don't get with 200 hours of simulator time with wholly scripted events.

The military is a completely different scene. You live and breath it for several years, you are closely vetted and monitored in a way that would never happen in the civilian world, including practically 24/7 peer review. Everything you do is monitored and overseen by a whole chain of people that are in place for that purpose, both doing the aviation job and the ancillary duties. That's why they can do what they do, and the sheer economic requirements involved preclude any remotely similar system on the civilian side. The military leadership who thinks they can plug one system to the other don't understand that there is no direct transfer that is even remotely economical.

Richman

 

[Flyinthrew]

So now that we're all done being offended, let's talk about the article some more.

So this guy wants the airlines and the Reserve force to work together to balance demand. He's saying that there's a sum total of flying to be done between the two sectors, and that together they can use the same pilots to cover all of the flying. To an extent, it's already being done, but not in grey birds. That's why there is Atlas, Kalitta, Sun Country, Delta, Omni, and Southwest jets parked at my home field every day of the week. His AMC is using civilian pilots to move people and cargo that he doesn't have the staffing or the jets to move. If you want the people to keep flying the grey metal, great. Give them a reason to do so. Give me a reason to stay. That's the big problem. They're unwilling to look inward and say that they are treating their pilots like crap. You can do that sometimes, like during the first part of their commitment when they're young, motivated and stuck anyway. You can do that during the Lost Decade. You cannot do that to the 1500 hour guys, especially when airlines are hiring. And why aren't guys taking the Big Bonus? Because you can do that to guys that have taken the bonus. You can do anything you want to them and there's nothing they can do about it. Give me a reason to stay.

His comments about the 1500 hour rule makes him sound like a rambling drunkard. There wasn't really a coherent thought in there that I could tell. The Air Force has zero control over that anyway. He talks about 'relook'ing at it like it's one of his policy letters that he doesn't like anymore.

 

[FlyingAccountant]

If the military is facing a drastic shortage of pilots, why would they be championing lowering the 1500 rule? Isn't that giving military guys even more incentive to go fly the friendly skies if they were to do that?

 

[Richman]

Makes no sense considering military pilots already get an exemption from the 1,500 rule.

Richman

 

[Hacker15e]

Makes no sense considering military pilots already get an exemption from the 1,500 rule.

If the military is facing a drastic shortage of pilots, why would they be championing lowering the 1500 rule? Isn't that giving military guys even more incentive to go fly the friendly skies if they were to do that?

Quite right.

IMO this is a result of poorly-chosen quotes from a General who isn't very smart about the 121 flying world in an article that doesn't say very much about anything except that the Air Force and the airlines are talking about...something.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Makes no sense considering military pilots already get an exemption from the 1,500 rule.

Richman

My only guess is that he thinks that lowering the number will flood the job market with civilian applicants that will cool off the hiring and leave his people alone. The flaw is that this would flood the regionals. Active duty mil guys don't go to regionals unless they are rotary or are in a place like Hacker15e was. The general was particularly worried about his reservists. I don't know where pure reservists enter 121, though so maybe the scheme works for him.

 

[ian]

My only guess is that he thinks that lowering the number will flood the job market with civilian applicants that will cool off the hiring and leave his people alone. The flaw is that this would flood the regionals. Active duty mil guys don't go to regionals unless they are rotary or are in a place like Hacker15e was. The general was particularly worried about his reservists. I don't know where pure reservists enter 121, though so maybe the scheme works for him.

not true. a lot of us went to the regionals for a stint when we separated so early from our original commitments when the air force decided they were over manned in the pilot career field. I'd say about 75% of my peers went to a regional for a stint.

 

[derg]

The FAA's stroke of a pen converting AV-8B and Osprey time as "powered lift" made the DOD smile.

 

[Flyinthrew]

The FAA's stroke of a pen converting AV-8B and Osprey time as "powered lift" made the DOD smile.

For the Harrier, airlines and everybody else look at it as turbine airplane time. It's just the little matter of getting that 250 of airplane PIC filled in on the 8710 for your ATP. If you have your ASEL PPL before mil flight school you can call all of your time in primary and advanced as PIC for the FAA even though you would be thrown out of the building if you tried to do it on your airline apps.

For the Osprey guys...couldn't say. It's a different animal.

 

[Flyinthrew]

not true. a lot of us went to the regionals for a stint when we separated so early from our original commitments when the air force decided they were over manned in the pilot career field. I'd say about 75% of my peers went to a regional for a stint.

I stand corrected. I suppose that if you get pushed out early or spend half your time in a non-flying billet then you're over 750 but below 1500. I do know a small handful from over the years that ended up out there. In the past 24 months, I can't think of a single one.

 

[MikeD]

The FAA's stroke of a pen converting AV-8B and Osprey time as "powered lift" made the DOD smile.

Made the Marines definitely smile. As well as USAF for the saps who got the Osprey.

 

[ian]

I stand corrected. I suppose that if you get pushed out early or spend half your time in a non-flying billet then you're over 750 but below 1500. I do know a small handful from over the years that ended up out there. In the past 24 months, I can't think of a single one.

We left early voluntarily...and like I said I know 20+ myself included that went to a regional in the past 3 years....and I had 2100 hours when I separated

 

[derg]

Made the Marines definitely smile. As well as USAF for the saps who got the Osprey.

Yup!

My buddy talked to a lot of those pilots at a career fair and had the strange instruction to tell them, "Well, if you could take all that Harrier time and go to Great Lakes…" :/

 

[MikeD]

Yup!

My buddy talked to a lot of those pilots at a career fair and had the strange instruction to tell them, "Well, if you could take all that Harrier time and go to Great Lakes…" :/

That's low rent......

I stand corrected. I suppose that if you get pushed out early or spend half your time in a non-flying billet then you're over 750 but below 1500. I do know a small handful from over the years that ended up out there. In the past 24 months, I can't think of a single one.

Yes, like @ian said, there was a time when there was voluntary separation offered for certain AFSCs (MOSs), most of which were 11M (mobility/transport) pilots. Many guys smartly took the offer, plus the pay that went with it. 11F people on the fighter side, as well as 11B on the bomber side, have always been undermanned, and any early outs for them were rare to non-existant.

 

[USMCmech]

Made the Marines definitely smile. As well as USAF for the saps who got the Osprey.

The Osprey was always "Powered Lift" but the Harrier change was pretty recent I think.

 

[MikeD]

The Osprey was always "Powered Lift" but the Harrier change was pretty recent I think.

That's true. I believe Osprey more or less was the first of the Category? And the Harrier was indeed a recent change, though what the logic behind that change is/was, I'm not certain.

 

[derg]

"They" were generally able to wiggle it in as "fixed wing" with some classification gymnastics, but with the redesignation AV8B time and Osprey isn't fixed at all.

 

[MikeD]

"They" were generally able to wiggle it in as "fixed wing" with some classification gymnastics, but with the redesignation AV8B time and Osprey isn't fixed at all.

Should've flown the AV-8A/C....unless that's included too

What a cool sportscar of a jet the early model Harriers were.....just like A-4 Skyhawks.