Ailerons In The Stall

mtsu_av8er said:
Ruh-Roh - do I need to get involved here?:buck:
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Nah, It was a good meeting. Lots learned. :) I will give you a hint - I was flying over Fayetville, and I was supposed to be over Shelbyville. The winds up at altitude were about 37 knots.
 
Timbuff10 said:
That works! You can also substitute playing with trim and add 150-200 rpm.

Anyone know why you are supposed to do your first steep turn to the left?
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Sure, if an airplane happens to be overtaking you, they (should) be on your right side.
 
The only time I am really worried about a stall is take off and landing. On takeoff, I ALWAYS make sure I stay at 65 and never below. If I beging to dip down below, I quickly put the nose down. On the approach I got kind of slower than I should although nowhere near a stall. My CFI did warn me though as this is a place you DO NOT want to go into a stall. We had a strong crosswind and somewhat of a bumpy right which made it difficult. But hey that improves my skills and awareness. I am not really afraid of a bumpy ride so much, and it is even kind of fun. That crosswind was hard and I know I am going to have trouble when I start crosswind landings. What gets on my nerves is where t he flap position indicator is on the plane--on the left in front of the side window. You kind of have to lead foward to look at it. So here I am trying to add flaps, leaning foward to see when the flaps are in the correct position. You cannot just hit the button and it moves to the next degree of flaps. You have to hold it until it reaches the desired degree. This causes a distraction on landing though, having to lean foward just to see the flap position--which is usally why I scoot up further before we leave. Putting the flaps up you can just hit it once and they will go all the way, but down you have to hold it until they get there. If the position indicator was right in front of my eyes, that would sure make things easier. I at least wish they had put it on the right hand side so I could easily glance over at it. I think it is coustom installed though although I could be wrong. Is this how all 152s are?
 
Someone asked above why shouldn't we use aileron to correct an undesired roll during a stall?

-First ask yourself what is a stall?
1.The angle of attack has increased past the critical angle of attack.
2. Remember angle of attack is the angle between the chord (back to front of wing and the relative wind)

So what normally happens when you turn the yoke to the left when flying? The aircraft rolls left because you've decreased the AOA on the left wing and increased the AOA(by changing the chord-lowering an aileron) on the right wing.

So now let's say the aircraft is stalled and you agressively apply aileron. If you try to roll left (turing the yoke to the left) the right aileron goes down increasing the AOA of attack on the right. BAD!! Why? Cause we had already exceeded the critical angle of attack, now we lower the aileron (change the chord) and exceed the critical angle even more.

That's it in a nutshell....
 
Is this how all 152s are?
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I got my PPL in a 172, I forget which model, but it was old. What I was taught was to push and hold the lever and count for 5 seconds for each series of flaps you wanted.
 
Baronman said:
Someone asked above why shouldn't we use aileron to correct an undesired roll during a stall?

-First ask yourself what is a stall?
1.The angle of attack has increased past the critical angle of attack.
2. Remember angle of attack is the angle between the chord (back to front of wing and the relative wind)

So what normally happens when you turn the yoke to the left when flying? The aircraft rolls left because you've decreased the AOA on the left wing and increased the AOA(by changing the chord-lowering an aileron) on the right wing.

So now let's say the aircraft is stalled and you agressively apply aileron. If you try to roll left (turing the yoke to the left) the right aileron goes down increasing the AOA of attack on the right. BAD!! Why? Cause we had already exceeded the critical angle of attack, now we lower the aileron (change the chord) and exceed the critical angle even more.

That's it in a nutshell....
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It was me and I knew the answer. I was trying to get the poster of the this thread to answer this because it's important for him to understand this.

Good explanation though. thanks
 
Yes, thanks. I will try to do the same, seeing how long it takes each degree to come down. I worry about having to learn foward on landing and then when the nost lifts, losing airspeed and stalling because I am too distracted.
 
Baronman said:
Someone asked above why shouldn't we use aileron to correct an undesired roll during a stall?

-First ask yourself what is a stall?
1.The angle of attack has increased past the critical angle of attack.
2. Remember angle of attack is the angle between the chord (back to front of wing and the relative wind)

So what normally happens when you turn the yoke to the left when flying? The aircraft rolls left because you've decreased the AOA on the left wing and increased the AOA(by changing the chord-lowering an aileron) on the right wing.

So now let's say the aircraft is stalled and you agressively apply aileron. If you try to roll left (turing the yoke to the left) the right aileron goes down increasing the AOA of attack on the right. BAD!! Why? Cause we had already exceeded the critical angle of attack, now we lower the aileron (change the chord) and exceed the critical angle even more.

That's it in a nutshell....
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So then why can't you apply right aileron in said situation? :)
 
whats also good to do is have your instructor control the stall using the yoke and you on the rudder pedals. It allows you to focus in on exactly how much rudder to use during stall and recovery. Then try to put the two together. This worked very well for almost all of my students.

Same thing when learning pitch/power- one of you controls the rudder and power, the other person controls the pitch and roll.. allows you to focus in on fewer things and develop a technique.
 
TaterSalad said:
Sure, if an airplane happens to be overtaking you, they (should) be on your right side.
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Perfect answer... You know, the funny thing is out of all the times I have ever asked that question you are the only person to ever come up with that answer.

I treat it as a self clearing maneuver For some reason alot of people like to do clearing turns before they do their steep turns. Maybe we should do clearing turns before we do clearing turns?
 
From what I understand, in a nutshell, one should not use aileron because if one wing is higher than the other, one wing will be stalled more than the other. By using aielron you are increasing the AoA on one side, while decreasing it on the other. So one side is stalled more than the other and you begin to go into a spin. Somthing like that. You want to keep both wings level with rudder so that one wing does not have a higher AoA than the other/
 
Timbuff10 said:
Anyone know why you are supposed to do your first steep turn to the left?
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Well, you really have me scratching my head on this one...so why are you supposed to do your first steep turn to the left?
 
rickyrhodesii said:
Well, you really have me scratching my head on this one...so why are you supposed to do your first steep turn to the left?
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Because the right side of the aircraft turns steeper than the left, so by doing the one to the left first, you can "build up" to the more difficult right-hand turn.



Either that, or it's because any overtaking aircraft will (should) be on your right, so by turning left first you are turning away from them (good) rather than into them (bad)
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
That never happened to me in my PPL training..cause well I knew not to have alieron in play in a stall.

But I do remember almost spinning the plane on my PPL checkride.
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I know the feeling Max...but i was lucky enough to prevent the plane from entering a spin. I guess i showed the examiner i was able to stall the plane in uncoordinated flight and recover safely from it. He did have me repeat the maneuver to ensure i could perform it correctly.
 
Baronman said:
Someone asked above why shouldn't we use aileron to correct an undesired roll during a stall?

-First ask yourself what is a stall?
1.The angle of attack has increased past the critical angle of attack.
2. Remember angle of attack is the angle between the chord (back to front of wing and the relative wind)

So what normally happens when you turn the yoke to the left when flying? The aircraft rolls left because you've decreased the AOA on the left wing and increased the AOA(by changing the chord-lowering an aileron) on the right wing.

So now let's say the aircraft is stalled and you agressively apply aileron. If you try to roll left (turing the yoke to the left) the right aileron goes down increasing the AOA of attack on the right. BAD!! Why? Cause we had already exceeded the critical angle of attack, now we lower the aileron (change the chord) and exceed the critical angle even more.

That's it in a nutshell....
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It may be in a nutshell, but it isn't correct. Read 14CFR23.201(d).

In a nutshell, per Part 23 certification requirements the ailerons must continue to function throughout the stall.
 
stuckingfk said:
So what is the reason for not using aileron in the stall?
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The CFI was taught incorrectly and continues to teach incorrect material. See the FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook"--coordinated controls (that would include aileron) should be used through the stall recovery.
 
VicariousLiving said:
The CFI was taught incorrectly and continues to teach incorrect material. See the FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook"--coordinated controls (that would include aileron) should be used through the stall recovery.
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Yep. The book says recovery is supposed to be coordinated. But remember that "the book" changes. It wasn't that long ago that "chop and drop" was the preferred method of teaching short field landings.

Two things to consider with respect to ailerons in stall recovery

1. When a wing drops, it's a "natural" reaction for a lot of pilots to use the ailerons to fix it, to the exclusion of the rudder (look at the very first post that started this thread). And we know how bad most rudder use by private pilots is anyway. So, focusing on the rudder, even to the exclusion of the ailerons becomes an interim technique for teaching proper rudder use and preventing aileron overuse. Recovery with only rudder may not be pretty, but recovery with only aileron can be downright dangerous.

2. Spin recovery is ailerons to =neutral= and rudder alone to stop the rotation. The difference between a wing drop and an incipient spin is really just matter of degree.
 
VicariousLiving said:
So now let's say the aircraft is stalled and you agressively apply aileron. If you try to roll left (turing the yoke to the left) the right aileron goes down increasing the AOA of attack on the right. BAD!! Why? Cause we had already exceeded the critical angle of attack, now we lower the aileron (change the chord) and exceed the critical angle even more.

That's it in a nutshell....
Click to expand...

It may be in a nutshell, but it isn't correct. Read 14CFR23.201(d).

In a nutshell, per Part 23 certification requirements the ailerons must continue to function throughout the stall.
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Why does that make what Baronman said wrong? If they continue to be effective then they cause the wing to exceed the critical angle of attack more.
 
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