Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Attitude: the most effective predictor of safety...
Age 60 rule, according to Len Morgan
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
WacoFan
Bigly
Interesting that the young pilots completely boned the older guys out of greed and selfishness...and then five years ago the older guys boned the young. Karma sucks when it goes against you.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
WacoFan said:
Except the young pilots never did that. Age 60 was the result of management collusion with the FAA administrator to reduce longevity and sick time costs. Young pilots had nothing to do with it.
WacoFan
Bigly
Len Morgan said it did. Len Morgan learned to fly in a Fleet with the RCAF and then flew in WW2. Len Morgan flew for Braniff when it was cool. Len Morgan flew the big, orange 747. Len Morgan>ATN_Pilot.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
"Screw you, I got mine" is not limited to this industry.
But we are pretty good at it.
seagull
Well-Known Member
Do you have a pointer to that data? I find it highly suspect.
seagull
Well-Known Member
Which is why there should be NO age limit at all, but instead a REAL physical that includes cognitive functioning.
If that's the case, then curiously, why was ALPA leadership seemingly for the extension to Age 65 prior to 1968? After that, they changed their mind and went with the FAA, at least according to Morgan in his article. What would've prompted that change of heart with the leadership, if not from the feelings of the junior membership?
seagull
Well-Known Member
This was true 5 years ago, but much less so now. We have several ways to conduct cognitive testing that appear fairly reliable. Even aside from that, I would say that a well designed sim eval would capture the issues involved, with a combination of looking at complex scenarios and startle situations.
There has been significant work on this topic in recent years. Pamela Tsang has been involved in some of this work. The fact is that there are metacognitive abilities that correlate with experience and offset the perceived value of a "younger" pilot.
Bumblebee
Commodore
well maybe someone will change his mind...
I like to argue with myself...argue with myself oh oh oh....(to the tune of dancing with myself)
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm not sure if they deleted the last thread, but it was in there. It may just be locked.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yes, of course, after the rule change had already been in place for a while, the feelings of the membership shifted towards keeping it. Once you've learned to live with a rule, you tend to want it to stay rather than changing in a way that is negative towards you. But in terms of the rule being put into place to start with, it had absolutely nothing to do with young pilots lobbying for it. In those days, FOs (young pilots) had virtually no power within the Association. They had only had the right to vote for a few years at that point.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'd be interested in seeing that cognitive testing, and seeing just how efficient it truly is. I'm not in favor of adding any sort of testing that would make a medical a pain in the ass to get every six months, even more so than it is now.
As far as sim evals, they do absolutely nothing to find these problems, and you know that.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Which we both know is not going to happen. One of the many reasons that Captain Woerth fought tooth and nail against moving away from the Age 60 rule. Far too many negative consequences that can result.
Of course I'll get called an uppity U-Boat Commander for this, but I'm pretty happy with my employers use of MMPI's, cognitive testing and psychologists during the screening process.
I could swiftly name five pilots at Skyway which I wanted to strangle, out of a group of 120 pilots. What, 5%?
After 15-ish years at Southernjets, out of almost 12,000 pilots, there are probably two or three which I'd love to conveniently run into in a dark alleyway. 0.025%?
Unscientific, of course.
I could swiftly name five pilots at Skyway which I wanted to strangle, out of a group of 120 pilots. What, 5%?
After 15-ish years at Southernjets, out of almost 12,000 pilots, there are probably two or three which I'd love to conveniently run into in a dark alleyway. 0.025%?
Unscientific, of course.
Nick
Well-Known Member
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yes, the Delta interview does a pretty good job at testing these things. But I'm sure you wouldn't want to do all of those fancy cognitive tests every six months for your medical, would you?
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
GIT OUT OF MY SEAT, OLD MAN!
Young pilots are understandably pissed that old pilots have moved the goal-posts. But, realistically, you don't need cat-like reflexes to fly an ILS...that's sort of the point of the thing. The argument that old pilots are dangerous is ridiculous, and obviously false. All other things being equal, a guy who is 65 is probably a BETTER pilot than I am, in the modern environment. Should he be flying an F-22? Probably not. But a 777? I can think of no one better. It's maybe worth remembering that, ultimately, our jobs are protected and enhanced by fewer planes crashing. And the wealth of experience that a guy who has flown 30,000 hours and seen every Stupid Pilot Trick under the sun brings is something that can't be replicated in a classroom or a sim. It's all a relic of stupid, short-sighted government Largesse (as pointed out above). Has the current generation gotten screwed by it? Almost certainly. Which isn't why it should be continued, it's why it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
Young pilots are understandably pissed that old pilots have moved the goal-posts. But, realistically, you don't need cat-like reflexes to fly an ILS...that's sort of the point of the thing. The argument that old pilots are dangerous is ridiculous, and obviously false. All other things being equal, a guy who is 65 is probably a BETTER pilot than I am, in the modern environment. Should he be flying an F-22? Probably not. But a 777? I can think of no one better. It's maybe worth remembering that, ultimately, our jobs are protected and enhanced by fewer planes crashing. And the wealth of experience that a guy who has flown 30,000 hours and seen every Stupid Pilot Trick under the sun brings is something that can't be replicated in a classroom or a sim. It's all a relic of stupid, short-sighted government Largesse (as pointed out above). Has the current generation gotten screwed by it? Almost certainly. Which isn't why it should be continued, it's why it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
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