I was just saying if you were power limited and trying to plug and having trouble, have them initiate a tobaggan.
Afterburner Takeoffs
- Thread starter Phil Schuyler
- Start date
I was just saying if you were power limited and trying to plug and having trouble, have them initiate a tobaggan.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Air Force had a meeting, refueling while descending is called a toboggan maneuver if the receiving aircraft needs it.
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///AMG
Well-Known Member
ohhh gotcha. Every time we requested lower or higher, they said we had to disconnect due to their operating limitations. Is that some sort of an emergency deal for them then? I remember being very low on gas in afghanistan, tanker join in full IMC, was about to plug and the prowler (who has no radar) requested lower.......they said they couldn't take me in the descent and i told them that I would have to divert if they do that and the prowler can wait with it's 20 million lbs of gas
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Was kidding. I thought it described the scenario when the tanker slowing to desired speed would require flaps and the flaps would result in some vortex turbulence, so a descent is the solution. Now, I'm not sure what it means.
Does it also mean descending so receiving aircraft can hold power setting? Or, is it any descent while refueling? In the Navy, we just talk to each other.
Yeah, a toboggan maneuver. That's the formal term. Tanker descends for aircraft that can't keep up for any reason (problem, damage, A-10, C-130).
It's done for boom refueling. Didn't figure it'd be any problem for probe/drogue maneuver.
You're demoted back to wingman for not knowing this, btw....
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You see it with A-10s up at altitude, or with MC/EC-130s that are too heavy to hang on the boom, and the tanker can't slow down enough in level flight. Tanker initiates about a 300-500 fpm descent upon request from the receiver to "tobaggan", and refueling happens in the descent, helping both aircraft.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Knew it was a descending refuel, just didn't know if it was any more specific. I can see that it would be a more common thing with KC-135's and KC-10's.
Alright Navy, I'll do your homework for you, since the Navy doesn't seem to teach anything beyond landing on a boat to you guys.
Reference ATP 3.3.4.2, ( ATP-56b); NATO Air-to-Air Refueling Procedures
Page 1A-16
"Toboggan Maneuver
Request from receiver for the tanker to start a slow descent, maintaining the refuelling airspeed. The rate of descent is between 300 and 500 ft per min and this should be used unless tanker or receiver requests otherwise."
Gonna do tanker ops, especially joint service tanker ops, this is your publication to know.
And //AMG , you're still demoted.....as well as the rest of your CVW.
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
Awesome that you took your girls to see the Thunderbirds!
You're right in the fact that AB uses a lot of fuel, the fuel flows get pretty high! Very few real-life training and operational fighter squadrons fly in the same configuration that the Thunderbirds use (i.e. clean: no pylons, bags, weapons etc). Generally speaking speed is life (unless you're hitting birds), the operational jets with a full combat load can almost weight twice what the empty weight is. To even meet anything remotely safe (airspeed wise) for a takeoff abort, you need a lot of power.
AB takeoffs makes things happen somewhat quickly. I didn't really think too much about it until recently getting a checkout in a PA-44 Seminole at a local flying school. In most fighters, it's critical to raise the gear handle fairly quickly after rotation to avoid over-speeding the gear (our speed is 250 for gear/flaps). I didn't think too much about it when flying the Seminole and just raised the gear immediately after rotation... the civilian instructor was not a big fan of that technique!
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
S-3's usually had fuel to spare and had no problem going slow. @///AMG better remember this. This time next year there will probably be a necro-post added to this thread where ///AMG asked for a toboggan in some NATO exercise and was greeted with silence.Alright Navy, I'll do your homework for you, since the Navy doesn't seem to teach anything beyond landing on a boat to you guys.
Reference ATP 3.3.4.2, ( ATP-56b); NATO Air-to-Air Refueling Procedures
Page 1A-16
"Toboggan Maneuver
Request from receiver for the tanker to start a slow descent, maintaining the refuelling airspeed. The rate of descent is between 300 and 500 ft per min and this should be used unless tanker or receiver requests otherwise."
Gonna do tanker ops, especially joint service tanker ops, this is your publication to know.
And //AMG , you're still demoted.....as well as the rest of your CVW.
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In all seriousness though, it doesn't state anywhere that I've seen, that a toboggan is restricted to boom refueling ops, or otherwise can't be used for probe/drogue ops. So I don't know where the restriction comes from that they told you //AMG. Maybe they needed to hear the formal term? I don't know.
Kind of like a chow hall I was at. I ask for a patty melt. Mess hall worker says they don't have them on menu, so no, they can't make one. So I ask then, can I have a burger on toast with melted cheese over grilled onions on it? "Sure! no problem!"
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Option 1:
"Texaco One, can you give me x knots in a y feet per minute descent?"
"Thirsty One, affirmative."
Option 2:
"Texaco One, we are requesting a toboggan."
"Say again, Thirsty One."
"Texaco One, we are requesting a toboggan."
"What do you need, Thirsty One?"
"Can you give me x knots in a y feet per minute descent?"
"Thirsty One, affirmative."
:stir:
"Texaco One, can you give me x knots in a y feet per minute descent?"
"Thirsty One, affirmative."
Option 2:
"Texaco One, we are requesting a toboggan."
"Say again, Thirsty One."
"Texaco One, we are requesting a toboggan."
"What do you need, Thirsty One?"
"Can you give me x knots in a y feet per minute descent?"
"Thirsty One, affirmative."
:stir:
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Every tanker pilot should know that brevity. I mean, (besides being in their own air refueling regs) here's a word that gives them a change to change from straight and level flight while in contact, and do something different. Maybe even hand fly the maneuver. I can't believe any tanker crew wouldn't know it....immediately...when they heard it.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Never heard it around the boat in recovery tanking, but acknowledged its common Air Force use and defined it correctly above before second-guessing myself thinking there might be a more nuanced definition.Every tanker pilot should know that brevity. I mean, (besides being in their own air refueling regs) here's a word that gives them a change to change from straight and level flight while in contact, and do something different. Maybe even hand fly the maneuver. I can't believe any tanker crew wouldn't know it....immediately...when they heard it.
If it was ever in a NATOPS, I missed it. I recall a brief "refueling while descending" section for the S-3B but don't think it mentioned it by name, I could be wrong, my library has taken other directions in the last 20 years. Wait a second, did you throw me into the tanker crew category, tanking was a part-time gig.
Never heard it around the boat in recovery tanking, but acknowledged its common Air Force use and defined it correctly above before second-guessing myself thinking there might be a more nuanced definition.
If it was ever in a NATOPS, I missed it. I recall a brief "refueling while descending" section for the S-3B but don't think it mentioned it by name, I could be wrong, my library has taken other directions in the last 20 years. Wait a second, did you throw me into the tanker crew category, tanking was a part-time gig.
I think for you guys.......carrier -based tanking or buddy tanking, it wouldn't really apply because of the fact that it's "secondary employment" for you, as well as the low altitudes you're tanking at and you're pretty much same-performance aircraft at the boat, generally speaking.
I'd imagine that the VMGR guys were probably familiar with it, along with the standard "heavy" tankers of the USAF and foreign forces. Especially with the VMGR guys being KC-130s, and refueling fighters. By comparison, I don't think any USAF fighters that were probe and drogue, were ever refueled by a USAF HC-130 tanker ever, such as the F-100, F-104, F-105, A-37, F-5.
Ain't that the unfortunate truth. Even though there's a joint pub for it too.