Aerobatics in Training Aircraft
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Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Personally, I think that some of his books and theories are brilliant. I have read Darker Shades of Blue and think he makes some very important points.
Criticism from inside the USAF is mainly ad hominem -- that Kern was primarily a desk driver more than an aviator, which is somehow supposed to debase his theories (?).
What really opened my eyes was reading about what happened to him after he left the USAF and started to work for the US Forest Service with fire bombers/air tankers. That community was VERY dis-satisfied with how he reacted in the wake of some of the very wel publicized tanker crashes.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Well, so sorry that it doesn't hold up to your high standards of threaded discussion.
We'll try to be better for you next time.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
He was highly unpopular, and considered an outsider, coming into a tight community. Both major crashes were by the same company, who is no longer in business. I would say because of what happened, we as a community operate much safer aircraft structurally and much safer pilots.
I rmemeber following that whole thing following the -130 and PB4Y-2 crash and the subsequent "blue ribbon panel". What sucks is it really pared down the fleet, which had some old...yes...but well maintained birds like the Douglas series. Beyond a few DC-7s, I don't think anymore are operating in the US, and I believe those aren't contracted federally anyways?
mjg407
Well-Known Member
To be on the Fed contract, the platform had to have an OSL (Operational Service Life) which none of the Douglas platforms did. Butler in OR now has their DC-4,6,7s on contract with the state and does contract (like last year) to CA. OSL has gone away (to allow the DC-10 and 747 folks to try and bid), but many of the other companies no longer want to deal with it. The company that did own the C-130 and PB4Y is no longer in business. C-130 A's are prohibited on the Fed contracts.
Mike just posted some youtubes from last years fires.
Cool youtube stuff! I still remember growing up when Globe Air at Falcon Field in Mesa, AZ had their 6 B-17s operating out of there. Also remember Sis-Qs F7Fs operating out of Winslow, AZ.
The A-model -130 debacle is indeed interesting. Besides the whole thing about the trade of -130s/P-3s for the retired -119s to go to museums, and the whole scam that turned out to be; I'm surprised the As were used for firefighting. I mean, there was a reason the AF put them in the boneyard to begin with, esp their being 56-ish model years. But hindsight is 20/20. Was there ever any connection found between T130 and T82 that crashed in '94 near Pearblossom?
Yeah, sucks that operator is out of business; they had quite a fleet, including the ones in storage.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
None that I am aware of and I'm still waiting on the report for the P-2 from last year.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Oh believe me I have been there already, UH-60s don't mess around doling out wake. :drool:
It was one of those, fly level for 10 minuets without talking situations.
Me and my student had a nice little discussion when we got back about how I messed up avoiding his wake.
I do believe that I recovered just fine, even though it was my first time at 90 degrees (with me at the controls).
I think you guys are making good points and you don't have to tell me that more experience is better because I am right there with you, so in my mind this where we start to get diminishing returns by adding this to the training.
I wish we had aerobatic aircraft on the line, but out of the four flight schools here in town, none of us have one.
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About the conversation - I think it has been civil. Hacker and I have discussed topics in other threads and I have respect for him as a professional pilot and I think he has the same for me. I don't remember anybody sounding mad or yelling.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
But Douglas, don't you see? You just proved my (our?) point...
A little acro isnt required to fly the plane, but it may be required when the plane quits flying.
Glad you had a successful outcome with your wake turbulence encounter, even without the acro training ;-)
(ive also hit some wicked wakes before and it really woke me up...pun intended!)
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
100% agree. Lots of good perspectives and mature discussion.
Yeah, most of the civvie A-models I see around are at Coolidge, AZ now, where T&G Aviation (IAR) moved from the old Chandler-Memorial field on the Gila River reservation. I believe they may still do their firefighting contracts in France, but am not sure.
aloft
New Member
Please show me where demonstrating "zero gravity" is a required element for any FAA pilot certificate.
SFCC/UND
Well-Known Member
You must have no life, this was back on page two. Keep on reading and you'll see the point I was trying to make.
I guarantee you recovered just fine since you're here and able to write about it! The recovery didn't need to be pretty, just effective; and you made it happen. Good work, esp since that roll to near or past 90 happens so unexpected and quick most of the time.
Some used to have them. ATCA, the Lufthansa outfit at Phoenix-Goodyear Airport, used to have 3 T-34s that they taught their studs basic acro in prior or during the F33 Bonanza phase. From wht I gathered from another thread when I asked about it, they don't have them anymore apparently.
juskl
Well-Known Member
For those interested in the Phoenix area. We here at Chandler Air Service do aerobatic instruction. We use Great Lakes Bi-Planes for primary instruction and have a Pitts S2C for more advanced. We have been teaching aerobatics for about 28 years now... Though I have been here for over 2. We are very old school (as I have preached in the past). And we believe everyone should have the experience of aerobatics.
In fact, we do numerous CFI spin endorsements for several flight schools/academies in the Phoenix area. We specialize in this and have for years (that and tailwheel). We teach pilots to understand what is going on and we try at least to instill in people an understanding of the aircraft they are flying and how to use it in all situations. We do not teach fear. Respect yes, fear no.
But we do this in aircraft that are capable and designed for aerobatics. Aerobatics is a blast, but it is only the fool whom attempts maneuvers that equate to aerobatics in aircraft that are not rated, by pilots whom are not trained. This is why we take much pride in what we do. In the hopes that in the end, we will have saved someones life.....
What happened to these souls was unfortunate and tragic, but the airplane did not just break up.... It broke up when a pilot did something foolish, and it cost him his life and the lives of two others... If I had my way all pilots would immediately get a tailwheel endorsement after their Private (to learn what their feet are for and how to land straight). They would then do an instrument rating (better at communicating, navigating, and understanding their instruments). And then do an aerobatics course... even if they were never to pursue it later.... It would teach the pilot what an aircraft can do at it's extemes and how to get out of it.
Some don't like it and some do. But in the end, and education in unusual attitudes is a good thing. Oh yeah and we do the snap roll in the Lakes at about 75 mph. Just a spin on the horizontal. Which can go to the vertical if you hold it long enough... fun though....
In fact, we do numerous CFI spin endorsements for several flight schools/academies in the Phoenix area. We specialize in this and have for years (that and tailwheel). We teach pilots to understand what is going on and we try at least to instill in people an understanding of the aircraft they are flying and how to use it in all situations. We do not teach fear. Respect yes, fear no.
But we do this in aircraft that are capable and designed for aerobatics. Aerobatics is a blast, but it is only the fool whom attempts maneuvers that equate to aerobatics in aircraft that are not rated, by pilots whom are not trained. This is why we take much pride in what we do. In the hopes that in the end, we will have saved someones life.....
What happened to these souls was unfortunate and tragic, but the airplane did not just break up.... It broke up when a pilot did something foolish, and it cost him his life and the lives of two others... If I had my way all pilots would immediately get a tailwheel endorsement after their Private (to learn what their feet are for and how to land straight). They would then do an instrument rating (better at communicating, navigating, and understanding their instruments). And then do an aerobatics course... even if they were never to pursue it later.... It would teach the pilot what an aircraft can do at it's extemes and how to get out of it.
Some don't like it and some do. But in the end, and education in unusual attitudes is a good thing. Oh yeah and we do the snap roll in the Lakes at about 75 mph. Just a spin on the horizontal. Which can go to the vertical if you hold it long enough... fun though....
splash
your social justice comic center
Yep, I remember feeling that as well. The power on stall is a very simple maneuver though. What made your heart beat at a good clip though? I know what made mine beat rapidly was the fear of letting it get ahead of me and falling into a spin with all that torque in there. it's the closest maneuver to a spin during training when you put 20* the bank in there even more so. I believe it is the fear that makes me want to learn more about the matter in order to overcome it. A member here has help me learn what I didn't understand fully about it and where it was demonstrated wrong to me by one of my instructors in the long ago pass. I want to feel comfortable doing spins myself and look forward to doing them for my CFI. At some point I may have to use it as a training tool in an approved aircraft only of course. I want to have the ability to train my student about it more effectively than what the books call for if they wish ...the correct way and the indepth nature of it as I always wanted to know. I wanted to be sure I could get out of that spin I was so affraid of getting into. I knew it by rote but really wanted to be tested on P.A.R.E. under pressure.
After two days of reading I enjoyed this thread. :crazy: