Aerobatics in Training Aircraft

[jrh]

I teach guys pretty liberally, in the sense that you can darn near do anything in an airplane; BUT EVERYTHING comes with a price. Some things may be very expensive (ex- potential cost your life), others may be not so much so (ex- IFR WX that may be challenging, but you're properly certificated for, you've thoroughly checked, and have planned for). This is the whole concept of judgement. For the new guys, you don't have much money in your wallet, hence you can't afford to be doing many things beyond conservative. As you gain experience, you gain proverbial money in that wallet and will have a better idea of what prices you can personally afford for doing certain things, or pushing the envelope (while staying legal of course).

I agree with you, but how do you spread that philosophy across the entire flight training industry if the philosophy isn't universally already there?

That's what I was trying to say about flight school cultures. Everything feeds on itself. If there is a culture of adhering to limitations, playing it safe, etc., those attitudes will propagate through the ranks and most pilots coming up through the system will be relatively safe.

On the other hand, if all the "cool kids" are showing off, trying to see what they can get away with, etc., those trends will be passed on to the upcoming pilots. Students are copycats. Very few pilots try something in a plane unless they've seen it, or at least talked about it, with another pilot before. Stupid pilot tricks rarely come out of thin air.

Of course the PIC is ultimately responsible for a flight. I don't want to blame an entire school for one reckless instructor's actions. At the same time, I can't help but think the industry's accident rate would improve if the reckless cultures out there faded away.

How to make the reckless cultures fade away? That's the question I have no answer for.

 

[MikeD]

I agree with you, but how do you spread that philosophy across the entire flight training industry if the philosophy isn't universally already there?

That's what I was trying to say about flight school cultures. Everything feeds on itself. If there is a culture of adhering to limitations, playing it safe, etc., those attitudes will propagate through the ranks and most pilots coming up through the system will be relatively safe.

On the other hand, if all the "cool kids" are showing off, trying to see what they can get away with, etc., those trends will be passed on to the upcoming pilots. Students are copycats. Very few pilots try something in a plane unless they've seen it, or at least talked about it, with another pilot before. Stupid pilot tricks rarely come out of thin air.

Of course the PIC is ultimately responsible for a flight. I don't want to blame an entire school for one reckless instructor's actions. At the same time, I can't help but think the industry's accident rate would improve if the reckless cultures out there faded away.

How to make the reckless cultures fade away? That's the question I have no answer for.

Agree too. And that is the overriding challenge.....for every student you and I can teach to fly prudently, there are likely a good number that will go through never having been taught that, or worse, taught the opposite.

 

[thehobbit]

I agree with you, but how do you spread that philosophy across the entire flight training industry if the philosophy isn't universally already there?

That's what I was trying to say about flight school cultures. Everything feeds on itself. If there is a culture of adhering to limitations, playing it safe, etc., those attitudes will propagate through the ranks and most pilots coming up through the system will be relatively safe.

On the other hand, if all the "cool kids" are showing off, trying to see what they can get away with, etc., those trends will be passed on to the upcoming pilots. Students are copycats. Very few pilots try something in a plane unless they've seen it, or at least talked about it, with another pilot before. Stupid pilot tricks rarely come out of thin air.

Of course the PIC is ultimately responsible for a flight. I don't want to blame an entire school for one reckless instructor's actions. At the same time, I can't help but think the industry's accident rate would improve if the reckless cultures out there faded away.

How to make the reckless cultures fade away? That's the question I have no answer for.

I don't man its fun to take risks. It's dangerous to take risks. It's exiting to take risks. Like hitting the rev limiter on your in engine the final gear, or sex without a condom, jumping out of planes, or doing a 180 on a crotch rocket taking risks is fun, sometimes illegal and their can be some serious consequences. But sometimes that's the point, it's fuuunnn.

 

[jrh]

I don't man its fun to take risks. It's dangerous to take risks. It's exiting to take risks. Like hitting the rev limiter on your in engine the final gear, or sex without a condom, jumping out of planes, or doing a 180 on a crotch rocket taking risks is fun, sometimes illegal and their can be some serious consequences. But sometimes that's the point, it's fuuunnn.

Wow.

Ok.

I'm not even going to try to respond.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Wow.

Ok.

I'm not even going to try to respond.

Just did.
I would love to see basic aerobatics in basic flight training. But, we neither have the right equipment nor the right training attitude for it.

How to make the reckless cultures fade away? That's the question I have no answer for.

I do. But many people would be very upset. Recklessness is bred. Stop breeding it and it will fade away.

 

[tlewis95]

I would love to see basic aerobatics in basic flight training. But, we neither have the right equipment nor the right training attitude for it.

Bingo!I have been preaching this for a long time. If we were all taught how to do aerobatics, then nobody would be trying this stuff in aircraft that aren't approved for it. Even if they still were doing snap rolls in their Arrow, they at least have an idea of what they are doing, taking away one part of the problem. Mandatory acro training would also mean more acro aircraft available for pilots (like me) that enjoy maneuvering flight.

 

[Hacker15e]

Just did.
I would love to see basic aerobatics in basic flight training. But, we neither have the right equipment nor the right training attitude for it.


I do. But many people would be very upset. Recklessness is bred. Stop breeding it and it will fade away.

I think you've hit on two very related topics here.

I think part of the root cause of the specific phenomenon of this thread -- aerobatics performed by uneducated people in the incorrect aircraft -- is because the maneuvers are enigmatic. Because people haven't done them, and there is a bit of a taboo associated with them, that makes the practice very exciting.

I believe that if every sport pilot, LSA pilot, private pilot, etc, went out and did basic acro as part of their training you would lose a lot of this reckless stupidity. It would not be a taboo anymore -- they will have done it. Those who got a thrill by it would know how to do it correctly, at least. The rest would have their curious itch scratched and wouldn't go trying it in the wrong airplane.

 

[Clearblue]

I don't man its fun to take risks. It's dangerous to take risks. It's exiting to take risks. Like hitting the rev limiter on your in engine the final gear, or sex without a condom, jumping out of planes, or doing a 180 on a crotch rocket taking risks is fun, sometimes illegal and their can be some serious consequences. But sometimes that's the point, it's fuuunnn.

WTF how old are you?

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I think you've hit on two very related topics here.

I think part of the root cause of the specific phenomenon of this thread -- aerobatics performed by uneducated people in the incorrect aircraft -- is because the maneuvers are enigmatic. Because people haven't done them, and there is a bit of a taboo associated with them, that makes the practice very exciting.

I believe that if every sport pilot, LSA pilot, private pilot, etc, went out and did basic acro as part of their training you would lose a lot of this reckless stupidity. It would not be a taboo anymore -- they will have done it. Those who got a thrill by it would know how to do it correctly, at least. The rest would have their curious itch scratched and wouldn't go trying it in the wrong airplane.

You would not believe how much flak you can catch by saying stuff like this. I have flown with people who looked me in the eye and told me point blank that Aerobatics in Training would open the doors for more stupid behavior. My guess is that there is a division between old school CFI's and "New Age PTS players". Be honest, if every flight test would have to be administered by the FAA there would be a lot less funny attitude. Some people would never get in an airplane to start with, let alone ever become a CFI. But, because you can pay 600 dollars to a DPE in bed with the flight school, they do. There is always someone who plays by the book only, without ever digging deeper. Afterall you paid for it.

The old school people are dying. Partly because they are getting older and tired, but also partly because the new age dislikes their style and attitude. Tailwheel airplanes used to be something normal. Spins used to be normal occurences during training. I had to enter, perform and recover from a spin unassisted before I was allowed to solo. But I also flew gliders from my 14th to my 18 year and learned to appreciate the benefits of using your rudder and judgement for what you can ask from a plane.

It takes a lot of effort to train pilots to be responsible and aware. I am afraid the good old times where over when the first tricycle plane came out. Now, we are busy fulfilling everyones dream to fly, but we no longer have a selective way of doing it. Slap the money on the table and someone will 'make your experience pleasant'.

Eventually people realize that there is a lot of old school stuff, worth knowing and that's when they go and get additional training. The one and only reason I still want to get my CFI is to provide this sort of training to people. I believe our training system is set up to sell you half a cookie for full price right now ...

 

[Hacker15e]

You would not believe how much flak you can catch by saying stuff like this. I have flown with people who looked me in the eye and told me point blank that Aerobatics in Training would open the doors for more stupid behavior.

I wonder if any of the people saying that even have much aerobatic experience themselves. I find that people who haven't done it are either afraid of it or are fatally attracted to it. Again, if maneuvers are demonstrated and taught, then they're just maneuvers. They're no longer something that's mysterious and cool. When I was a T-38 instructor I took a good number of ROTC and Academy kids on orientation flights. Most of them wanted to go out and really wrap the jet up. As we were doing it, though, the vast majority of them realized that they really didn't like it, or that it wasn't all that exciting to begin with.

Stupid behaviour is a result of attitude and discipline (or lack of it). If that mindset is established in training, it is going to be passed on to those students when they are out on their own. So, as others have said, if you have instructors out doing stupid things, then younger instructors and students will naturally pick up on that attitude and behavior.

In the military, we put an immensely high value on flight discipline. Guys that are caught hotdogging get grounded and their beans cracked...then they get to stand up in front of all their buddies and confess what stupid stuff they've done so everyone else can learn from it.

I can't help but wonder what would happen at a flight school if the Chief Pilot did that -- caught wind of a CFI playing aerobatics in the wrong airplane, then grounded him and made him say his mea culpa in front of his buddies...then maybe give everyone a briefing on that accident that started off this thread.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I wonder if any of the people saying that even have much aerobatic experience themselves. I find that people who haven't done it are either afraid of it or are fatally attracted to it. Again, if maneuvers are demonstrated and taught, then they're just maneuvers. They're no longer something that's mysterious and cool. When I was a T-38 instructor I took a good number of ROTC and Academy kids on orientation flights. Most of them wanted to go out and really wrap the jet up. As we were doing it, though, the vast majority of them realized that they really didn't like it, or that it wasn't all that exciting to begin with.

Stupid behaviour is a result of attitude and discipline (or lack of it). If that mindset is established in training, it is going to be passed on to those students when they are out on their own. So, as others have said, if you have instructors out doing stupid things, then younger instructors and students will naturally pick up on that attitude and behavior.

In the military, we put an immensely high value on flight discipline. Guys that are caught hotdogging get grounded and their beans cracked...then they get to stand up in front of all their buddies and confess what stupid stuff they've done so everyone else can learn from it.

I can't help but wonder what would happen at a flight school if the Chief Pilot did that -- caught wind of a CFI playing aerobatics in the wrong airplane, then grounded him and made him say his mea culpa in front of his buddies...then maybe give everyone a briefing on that accident that started off this thread.

See, I have not whirled a F15 around, neither did I attend Military Flight Training anywhere on this planet. My introduction to aerobatics was through Pitts S2B's and Extra 300's a buch of Zlins and a Yak. My school used to have access to C150L Aerobat's and the 150 I soloed in was approved for spins. Back then we had instructors of old caliber who could teach this stuff.
Most flightschools I know now, prohibit any sort of aerobatics from the get go, and if they don't you may run into a CFI who is simply uncomfy and won't do it for this reason. The problem I have is not with the rules or common sense (only approved planes & well trained instructors should be the norm) but more with the fact that there is an attitude that things not required by law are ignored. Just because the student does not need training in spins - does not make a good enough reason to never expose them to this. Option one: Send them to a school to get training with an approved plane and an experienced instructor. Option two: Keep ignoring it and hope for the best.

I can't comment on CFI's shooting zero zero's or doing stupid stuff with their students. Out of the 20+ people who taught me, only one had funny habits and he's dead now. Staying away from stupid people is a choice.

Stupid behaviour is a result of attitude and discipline (or lack of it). If that mindset is established in training, it is going to be passed on to those students when they are out on their own. So, as others have said, if you have instructors out doing stupid things, then younger instructors and students will naturally pick up on that attitude and behavior.

This is a golden statement. You can frame it in gold, hang it up and hope some of the kids can read enough to get the finer point in the message.

In the military, we put an immensely high value on flight discipline. Guys that are caught hotdogging get grounded and their beans cracked...then they get to stand up in front of all their buddies and confess what stupid stuff they've done so everyone else can learn from it.

Discipline is taught. Look around at youth and those who raised them.
If you in fact grounded a CFI for having caught him/her with stupid things, and you went on to crack some beans, you would find yourself involved in a lawsuit. Thats sad, but a fact.

I can't help but wonder what would happen at a flight school if the Chief Pilot did that -- caught wind of a CFI playing aerobatics in the wrong airplane, then grounded him and made him say his mea culpa in front of his buddies...then maybe give everyone a briefing on that accident that started off this thread.

A mea culpa can be rehearsed just like an apology. Look at our politicians. If a CCFI must make someone say his/ her mea culpa you are looking at a hard nut to start with. The one who needs to be triggered to tell others about own wrongdoing may already have a integrity problem.

All we can do is to pledge to do better. Each one of us. Live by it, and the world will become a better place... (ohhh how touching )

Cheers,

 

[SFCC/UND]

caught wind of a CFI playing aerobatics in the wrong airplane, then grounded him and made him say his mea culpa in front of his buddies...then maybe give everyone a briefing on that accident that started off this thread.

Had a guy doing this and he was bragging it over the air to air freq and the boss was flying that day and lets say that he not working here no more.

 

[tlewis95]

You would not believe how much flak you can catch by saying stuff like this. I have flown with people who looked me in the eye and told me point blank that Aerobatics in Training would open the doors for more stupid behavior. My guess is that there is a division between old school CFI's and "New Age PTS players". Be honest, if every flight test would have to be administered by the FAA there would be a lot less funny attitude. Some people would never get in an airplane to start with, let alone ever become a CFI. But, because you can pay 600 dollars to a DPE in bed with the flight school, they do. There is always someone who plays by the book only, without ever digging deeper. Afterall you paid for it.

The old school people are dying. Partly because they are getting older and tired, but also partly because the new age dislikes their style and attitude. Tailwheel airplanes used to be something normal. Spins used to be normal occurences during training. I had to enter, perform and recover from a spin unassisted before I was allowed to solo. But I also flew gliders from my 14th to my 18 year and learned to appreciate the benefits of using your rudder and judgement for what you can ask from a plane.

It takes a lot of effort to train pilots to be responsible and aware. I am afraid the good old times where over when the first tricycle plane came out. Now, we are busy fulfilling everyones dream to fly, but we no longer have a selective way of doing it. Slap the money on the table and someone will 'make your experience pleasant'.

Eventually people realize that there is a lot of old school stuff, worth knowing and that's when they go and get additional training. The one and only reason I still want to get my CFI is to provide this sort of training to people. I believe our training system is set up to sell you half a cookie for full price right now ...

:yeahthat:

Great post.

I have tried explaining that a few times and it never has come out very nice. I feel exactly the same way.

 

[Roger, Roger]

414, you have wisdom beyond your hours. Work on that CFI, man!

 

[Douglas]

Before we dive in to an "everybody should do baby acro" onslaught, this is my side of things. "great" but hear me out.
Would I love that idea for me personally? Yes I would.
Would over 50% of my students? No they wouldn't. The majority of my students want nothing to do with an airplane that is upside down. Stalls keep them up at night.

It is not a "someday they will become confident and roll it when nobody is looking" thing. You can see it in their terrified eyes.
They want to get from point A to B without puking or being sick.

I know many middle aged guys who have told me personally, "oh you are a flight instructor? I used to take lessons, but I stalls scared me out of it."
Seriously the first time I did a power-on stalls solo, my first time solo to the practice area, my heart was beating at a good clip. It is understandable, and blatantly obvious the majority of the GA fliers want nothing to do with being upside down, ever and if they are forced to be they will not take up flying as a hobby.
My two cents,
it's typically worth two cents.

 

[granlistillo]

Good point-I think the system is adequate now. If you want to do aero or an upset course, their are plenty of places (not at every FBO mind you) where there are appropriate aircraft and qualified instructors.


Seems real simple to me. Knuckleheads need to follow the rules, and be professional aviators.

 

[TXaviator]

if someone is *scared* of the airplane, and is going to freak out when they find themselves in an unusual attitude or situation, they aren't cut out to be flying or have not been trained adequately. thats my take. or at the least, i don't want to be in an airplane with someone who isn't trained on what to do when the S hits the F.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

if someone is *scared* of the airplane, and is going to freak out when they find themselves in an unusual attitude or situation, they aren't cut out to be flying or have not been trained adequately. thats my take. or at the least, i don't want to be in an airplane with someone who isn't trained on what to do when the S hits the F.

+1.
People are scared because they are not properly prepared. I've seen CFI applicants come back from spin endorsements white like walls.
It does not have to be like this. I am not talking about teaching a presolo student how to fly a Lomcovak with a 150. I want stick and rudder skills, anticipation and preparedness. As Instructors (or gonna be instructors) you (we) need to take our impact on peoples lives more serious. What you teach today has tremendous impacts on peoples lives 10 -15 or 30 years from now. By then, no airplane will be certified for spins anymore, pilots will probably be what we despise in them today. Drivers. But they will hear voices and remember situations from their training. I'd like em to remember at least one thing from me, when the time comes.

 

[tonyw]

I know he had friends on JC, and is not here to defend himself, but this was totally preventable.

:yeahthat:

Yup. It's like playing Russian roulette. Sure, you may not kill yourself when you pull the trigger the first time, but that doesn't mean it's safe.

 

[Clearblue]

By then, no airplane will be certified for spins anymore, pilots will probably be what we despise in them today. Drivers. But they will hear voices and remember situations from their training. I'd like em to remember at least one thing from me, when the time comes.

I don't know if I like your future. anic: