Aerobatics in Training Aircraft
- Thread starter CoffeeIcePapers
- Start date
I'm probably not as fresh on my FAR's as I should be, but if I recall, Takeoff's and landings are permitted on taxiways as long as there has been prior permission recieved. As far as the Continental, I really don't know the story, but if the guy/gal landed or took off from a taxiway, if it wasn't an emergency,he/she was probably illegal because they probably didn't have prior permission. I'm just sayin.
jrh
Well-Known Member
You're correct, it's legal with permission or on private land.
However, I'm based at a Class C airport and neither had permission or private land
But that's beside the point. I mainly told that story to address the thought process involved.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Okay then.
I don't know your flight experience, but I assure you, in-flight break-ups are extremely rare when operated inside of limits.
Cheers
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Or the corporate/charter pilot that took off on Taxiway M in MEM.
I think that is where it becomes illegal, they clear you for one thing and you do another.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Yes, But they do happen. The single aircraft deadliest crash in history was due to inflight structural failure, caused by an incident years before. 500+ killed 5 survivors.
Reminds me of an old USAF training poster I saw 20 plus years ago. A hotdog crew was hot swapping a T-37 with another crew. The airplane wings were all bent, and anthropomorphic plane was panting with its tongue stuck out. The to paraphrase the punch line it was "don't overstress the aircraft for you buddies."
Oh, and Douglass, your "latte- friggin- dah" attitude on this thread is disconcerting too. You are not the most experience stick on this board, either.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Unfortunate, as I didn't mean it to be a dogpile on the deceased. I posted it in the hope that someone might learn something, but as usual on here, that isn't the case.
thehobbit
Well-Known Member
Sure we did. That would be not to do aerobatics in an aircraft that wasn't built for it. And If your going to push your limits do them with somebody that has exceeded yours.
flyinguitar
Well-Known Member
It's funny, but for all the training we receive as pilots to teach us that we are not above the rules, it seems that for a lot of people it doesn't stick.
At the first flight school I taught at, a formerly employed instructor (who had moved on to flying RJs for Go! airlines in Hawaii) was visiting and came along with me for a traffic watch flight in a C152. He was having so much fun flying the 152 that he asked if we could try a snap roll. I was appalled! I refused, and later mentioned it to someone else at the school who wasn't surprised and proceeded to tell me all the other crazy (non-approved aerobatic) maneuvers instructors had done in that particular airplane. I flew it as gently as possible after that.
I am regularly impressed by the many hazardous attitudes that can be found among instructors at my school (mostly anti-authority and macho). Just a couple weeks ago we had an instructor out shooting approaches with a student in 1/8SM and 001 VV. No we are not certified for CATIII approaches in our warriors! They just ducked under and got in anyway, and management didn't say a word.
At the first flight school I taught at, a formerly employed instructor (who had moved on to flying RJs for Go! airlines in Hawaii) was visiting and came along with me for a traffic watch flight in a C152. He was having so much fun flying the 152 that he asked if we could try a snap roll. I was appalled! I refused, and later mentioned it to someone else at the school who wasn't surprised and proceeded to tell me all the other crazy (non-approved aerobatic) maneuvers instructors had done in that particular airplane. I flew it as gently as possible after that.
I am regularly impressed by the many hazardous attitudes that can be found among instructors at my school (mostly anti-authority and macho). Just a couple weeks ago we had an instructor out shooting approaches with a student in 1/8SM and 001 VV. No we are not certified for CATIII approaches in our warriors! They just ducked under and got in anyway, and management didn't say a word.
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
Realization is the first step to getting better... :rotfl:
Lost a buddy in the 90's doing spin practice with a student in a previously 'hurt' airplane.
It must suck to see your right wing snap off, knowing full well that you are done and that your wife and kids will wonder why it happened to you, for the rest of their lives.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
A recurrent theme with these bozos. "Snap roll" did he actually say that?
A snap roll is basically an abrupt manuever where the plane is brought into a accelerated stall, cross controlled... In the Navy I had the chance to see one as a demo. As students, we could practice aileron rolls and barrel rolls, but never do a "snap roll". Any one who asked to do one, when he doesn't have a clue what one is, should just hang a sign around his neck that says "I am an idiot". Sheesh. Here is Patty Wagstaff take on the "Snap Roll" :
A snap roll is an autorotational roll, sort of a spin on a horizontal axis. If you think of an aileron roll where the airplane rotates 360 degrees along its longitudinal axis, a snap roll is a stalled aileron roll which rotates very quickly. In a snap roll there is a brisk rate of change in pitch and yaw, with abrubt control inputs giving it a high acceleration rate. This also means that in a snap roll there are more G forces than in a simple aileron roll.
To do a snap roll, it is important to establish a proper entry speed for your particular airplane so that you don't "over G" or "over stress" it. The pilot pulls the stick back to "break" the airplane into the stall while applying rudder in the direction of the snap roll. The airplane accelerates very quickly and while snap rolling, the pilot needs to relax back pressure slightly in order to help accelerate the roll. To recover the stall is "broken" by pushing the stick forward and neutralizing rudder. Sometimes in a series of multiple snap rolls the pilot must "help" the airplane stay in the snap roll by "loading and unloading" the control stick.
Other than a rhythmic rolling turn, I think the snap roll is the hardest maneuver to perfect for the competition pilot. They are often done on a vertical, descending or ascending line as well as on the horizontal and each attitude requires a slightly different technique to get the best snap roll. Also, each airplane - Decathalon, Extra, Sukhoi, etc. - requires slightly different control inputs to get the best snap roll.
The snap roll is a maneuver that the pilot can never practice enough or do well enough consistently!
Patty Wagstaff
Air Show Performer
Aerobatic Champion
sharkey
kind of a big deal
Thank you. A snap roll is a very high G maneuver which has pulled the wings off of aerobatic planes. If someone claims to do one in a normal cat. plane, to me, they've just shown how foolish and ignorant they are. Not a good combo. It's one of those things that if you know how to do, you also know not to do it.
The report made a point of the difference between the snap roll and the way the maneuver was described.
The report made a point of the difference between the snap roll and the way the maneuver was described.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Thanks for posting the link, mojo.
Sad, but educational.
Sad, but educational.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Exactly... To have enough energy to do that with the limited tailplane effectiveness of an Arrow, would require a pants pooping entry manuever with power on. Apparently on this thread there were 2 CFIs that were "super pilots", that didn't know the difference between a "snap roll" and a simple aileron roll.
tgrayson
New Member
Sure doesn't have to be. I've done one in a C152 Aerobat and I think it pulled less than 2. I'll take Patty Wagstaff's word on it that doing one well is challenging, but the basic maneuver is trivially simple.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Lots of difference between an aerobat and an sukhoi. Sure I could do one in an arrow...
Put the speed in the yellow arc. Pull up abrubtly, enter a left turn with power then stomp left rudder... pull the yoke to the stops while rolling in right aileron to stop the over bank. Hold it full aft and right while it "snaps" inverted to the left. Neutralize the rudders, put my hands on my head and yell OMG OMG OMG. let the nose fall through and either recover from a half cuban eight or a split S.... EASY now.
Wow I am an arrow superpilot... If the wings don't clap, I hope I have 6k feet to recover....
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
If you aren't doing it in a sukhoi, pitts or a extra I doubt you had the performance to do a true snap roll... But hey, I had it demo'd in a bonaza with a PT6... With a two tour F-14 pilot at the controls.
tgrayson
New Member
If you're going to into the yellow arc, duh.
Rather, slow to below maneuvering speed, yank the yoke back and stomp the left rudder at the same time, and she'll roll around quite nicely. And you won't be able to pull the wings off.