Advice for a non-newbie to keep progressing

[inigo88]

Not necessarily. Because BLS/ALS rigs do the same thing....911 transport from a scene to a hospital, just with a different level of care.

It's more like the difference between an ambulance working 911 and bringing patients to initial hospital care from pre-hospital (field) care; and an ambulance that's doing interfacility (hospital to hospital) transfers of more-or-less stable patients who have been in hospital care already. Since fixed-wing doesn't do "on scene" work, they're mainly the hospital to hospital transport work.

Sorry Mike I messed that up. In both places I've lived (Bay Area and Southern CA) all the ALS 911 pre-hospital contracts are done either by municipal or county fire dept owned ambulances, or giant companies like AMR or Rural Metro. The local "mom and pop" BLS private ambulance companies all have to fight for the left overs, which are the inter-facility transfers and random prison contracts and things like that. The end result was that all my EMT buddies had to "do their time" (that sounds familiar! ) driving inter-facility transfers for these small minimum-wage paying companies for a year or two before they had enough experience to go to paramedic school (complaining that they never got to drive code 3). How are things done down in Arizona?

Anyway sorry for the OT, but I've always thought rotorcraft EMS or law enforcement flying (heck even being a TFO) would be one of the most fun and rewarding things one could do in aviation. Pilots in our nature have to spend so much time and money on ourselves, worrying about building experience, training costs, debt, work rules and QoL - it would be a welcome change to go into work and actually make a difference in someone else's life. That's why it's always cool to talk to you Mike, because you've done both those types of flying (along with a few others!).

jrh, it sounds like you're in a good spot. You have the experience to be competitive in whichever direction you choose to go, you just need to decide what matters to you and which aspect of the industry offers the best fit.

Second, one of the core frustrations I have with many jobs across the industry has nothing to do with flying. It comes from what I see as a lack of respect by employers for their employees. This has factored in to my job decisions significantly, no matter if I realized it at the time or not. Back when I was running the flight school, I knew my boss and I had a deep respect for each other, which is one of the reasons I stayed as long as I did. When I decided to come to my current airline, all my research indicated they respected their pilot group and made an honest effort to treat them well, rather than use and abuse them to the fullest extent possible.

I couldn't agree more, and this simple fact has dramatically affected my own career goals as well. Pilots are professionals and need to be treated and compensated as such.

 

[MikeD]

Sorry Mike I messed that up. In both places I've lived (Bay Area and Southern CA) all the ALS 911 pre-hospital contracts are done either by municipal or county fire dept owned ambulances, or giant companies like AMR or Rural Metro. The local "mom and pop" BLS private ambulance companies all have to fight for the left overs, which are the inter-facility transfers and random prison contracts and things like that. The end result was that all my EMT buddies had to "do their time" (that sounds familiar! ) driving inter-facility transfers for these small minimum-wage paying companies for a year or two before they had enough experience to go to paramedic school (complaining that they never got to drive code 3). How are things done down in Arizona? .

Depends on the area. If there's a municipal FD that has their own CON, or Certificate of Need, then they generally do ALS transports, and leave the BLS transports for the contractor such as Southwest/Rural Metro. You'll find this in City of Phoenix, City of Tucson. Other cities, their fire departments only run fire, since they don't have the CON for EMS, so the Southwest/RM/PMT companies run all ambulance calls, ALS and BLS. You find this in places like Tempe/Mesa/Gilbert/Scottsdale, etc. Outlying rural areas may have their own CON and ambulance service, or they may contract with the above companies.

On topic: As NickH mentioned, EMS is a viable option. Many companies out there flying everything from piston twins, to single/multiengine turboprops, to jets.

 

[jrh]

Anyway, after all these comments making 9K sound like a 'career killer', I'm starting to wonder if there's something I'm missing.

It's not a career killer by any means. From everything I've seen, it's well respected by pretty much everyone. Whenever I jumpseat, flight crews at other carriers are usually admiring of what I do. It's hard to beat the overall pay/schedule/benefits/stability/corporate culture here. I like to think of us as the Southwest Airlines of piston twins. Some of our pilots make a career out of 9K, while others get a bunch of solid experience for a year or two and move on to whatever their end goal is.

The only reason I'm looking to leave is because I find it all boring. I fly the same city pair over and over again, day after day. Every detail of every trip is memorized by now. No matter how much seniority I gain, the repetitive nature of the job will remain. With time, I might live in better cities, or get paid better, or have a slightly better schedule, but I'll still be bored.

Granted, I know I'll probably be bored at my future jobs as well, but I'm hoping to be bored with twice as much money and time off

 

[TallFlyer]

Can I ask a sidebar question here? Why is it that people seem to look so side-long at 9K? They're about the only airline I'd want to fly for.
Generally speaking, my ideal 'end up' jobs in aviation, in rough order, would be:
1. Airtanker pilot;
2. Warbird pilot (hah);
3. Beaver pilot up in AK;
4. 9K flying.

Anyway, after all these comments making 9K sound like a 'career killer', I'm starting to wonder if there's something I'm missing.

I'm not trying to knock 9K at all, but you have to put it in the scope of an entire career. If you were to get your CFI tickets, instruct until ATP mins, then get hired at 9K you'll make some good money and have great QOL, but if you have goals beyond 9K eventually you'll need to take a backward step with regard to pay and QOL in order to move forward. Yes, there are lifers there that make high 5 figures, home every night, decent time off, and they're happy with that.

If that's what you want to do, go do it and enjoy yourself like many others have done before. If you have 121 aspirations beyond that realize that your next move is most likely going to be a step backwards in pay and plan accordingly. The sooner you make that move, the less it will hurt. Yes, there are former 9K guys (like dasleben and others) who have moved on to big iron 121 jobs, but my understanding is those guys had some 121 jet time in their logbook before they came to 9K.

To sum up, my only point is this: the sooner you can come up with an end goal for your career and then plan your career steps accordingly the better off you'll be. If 9K is the end goal, great, enjoy it, as many others have done. If it's not the end goal, keep in mind the pros and cons to the time with regard to what you want to do long term and plan accordingly while managing your lifestyle to accommodate any backward steps you may have to make with regard to pay and QOL.

 

[jrh]

Does anyone know of a comprehensive list of fixed wing EMS operators, particularly in the midwest? Or does anyone know the industry well enough to list them off here?

I've done some Google searching and they seem difficult to track down. I want to make sure I'm not missing any.

 

[DE727UPS]

I think if you want to be respected, feel respect, as an employee, you will need to stick with smaller outfits. The bigger the corporation is the more you are just a widget, sadly necessary to make the plane move from point A to point B. That's why unions are so prevalent and necessary at the airlines. I once worked for a small supplemental 121 with about 15 Convairs doing contract work around the country. Maybe 40 pilots and we had a contract through the teamsters, of all things. That company had the best labor/management relations of anywhere I ever worked. Where I'm at now the company has a team of lawyers attacking the contract to find productivity that doesn't even exist. Then they make it exist. It's just good business, I understand, but it doesn't give you the feeling of being respected as a worker bee. That said, I guess I'm one of those guys where feeling respected isn't that high on the list. The pay check, time off, benefits, retirement, and job security (in that order) are more important. I'm guess I'm just a happy little widget...

 

[jrh]

I think if you want to be respected, feel respect, as an employee, you will need to stick with smaller outfits.

Excellent point. It's kind of common sense, but I'd never put two and two together like that. I do fit in better at smaller places.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think if you want to be respected, feel respect, as an employee, you will need to stick with smaller outfits. The bigger the corporation is the more you are just a widget, sadly necessary to make the plane move from point A to point B. That's why unions are so prevalent and necessary at the airlines. I once worked for a small supplemental 121 with about 15 Convairs doing contract work around the country. Maybe 40 pilots and we had a contract through the teamsters, of all things. That company had the best labor/management relations of anywhere I ever worked. Where I'm at now the company has a team of lawyers attacking the contract to find productivity that doesn't even exist. Then they make it exist. It's just good business, I understand, but it doesn't give you the feeling of being respected as a worker bee. That said, I guess I'm one of those guys where feeling respected isn't that high on the list. The pay check, time off, benefits, retirement, and job security (in that order) are more important. I'm guess I'm just a happy little widget...

It's possible to have poor labor-management relations at small outfits too...and in small outfits it can have adverse consequences, not just for your quality of life/work environment but safety wise.

 

[🦈💜]

It's not a career killer by any means. From everything I've seen, it's well respected by pretty much everyone. Whenever I jumpseat, flight crews at other carriers are usually admiring of what I do. It's hard to beat the overall pay/schedule/benefits/stability/corporate culture here. I like to think of us as the Southwest Airlines of piston twins. Some of our pilots make a career out of 9K, while others get a bunch of solid experience for a year or two and move on to whatever their end goal is.

Thanks for that. I think I understand better, although mostly due to the original commenter's clarification above. Having no 121 aspirations, I feel no tug to get onto the seniority conveyer belt .. and I think that may largely account for the difference in outlook.

Sorry to have connected the dots like that, but I've noticed a pattern emerging when 9K is brought up and I wanted to better understand it.

Thanks!

-Fox

 

[🦈💜]

To sum up, my only point is this: the sooner you can come up with an end goal for your career and then plan your career steps accordingly the better off you'll be. If 9K is the end goal, great, enjoy it, as many others have done. If it's not the end goal, keep in mind the pros and cons to the time with regard to what you want to do long term and plan accordingly while managing your lifestyle to accommodate any backward steps you may have to make with regard to pay and QOL.

Understood, and thanks for the clarification. :> That makes perfect sense.

~Fox

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You know, if you treat it as a "job" and not as an extension of your personality, it's alright. But when the ego line asymptotically approaches your job line on a graph, that's where the problems start.

I enjoy my job, the profession is rather 'meh' at times, but when the "BS" bucket is heavier than the "Loot" bucket, I'll probably early retire and start up that Meth lab I've always been talking about.

Yup. I care when I'm at work and I wan't to do the best job that I can. But when you hear a guy blow a gasket on ops frequency about something that is beyond their control, kind of makes me wonder "why does this guy care so much?"

Here are my priorities at work in descending order: Safety, customer service, go home on time at the end of the trip, fix operational problems caused by the company/ATC/etc.

The part I like best about this job is that if you were to make a graph of effort vs. reward in the same manner of lift vs. drag, this job (when it is good) is basically L/D Max. You can make a comfortable living (though its not anywhere near where it should be) by putting in a reasonable amount of time and effort.

Not to say that this job doesn't have its moments of suck. As Jtrain mentioned, long periods of reserve with no end in sight can be unbearable. There are also the guys who have had a stroke of bad luck and have found themselves at Comair/Mesa/or any other airline that is shrinking.

I do think that its "in style" to bitch and moan about the regionals. There is plenty of suck in this industry, but as Doug said, as long as your self worth isn't tied to being Mr. Airline pilot, its not that bad. Its very easy to leave work at work and go home and enjoy life.

You really won't know if this job is for you unless you try it out. I've seen quite a few people on this website hamper their careers by saying "I can't/don't want to go to the regionals." I also see a lot of people who take the miscellaneous jobs you mentioned (charter, air ambulance, feeder freight) and what turns me off to those avenues is that people who take that route tend to be nomads. They jump from one company to another to another, requiring them to pack up and move every few years. Might work for you, but definitely not my style .

 

[derg]

Best piece of advice about "blowing your gasket" at work is "rage doesn't forward".

So when something happens during the operation, you can lose your cool and blast the ramp tower about catering, but he's just going to say "Send catering to ship 1607 at gate 12".

So all of that rage did nothing but make you sound like a petulant toddler in front of your colleagues and creates a caustic environment.

Just like when someone wants to give me the old "what-for" about forum-related stuff. Get as mad as you want, I really don't care. Curse at me, call me names, wow, but my answer stands.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Best piece of advice about "blowing your gasket" at work is "rage doesn't forward".

So when something happens during the operation, you can lose your cool and blast the ramp tower about catering, but he's just going to say "Send catering to ship 1607 at gate 12".

So all of that rage did nothing but make you sound like a petulant toddler in front of your colleagues and creates a caustic environment.

Just like when someone wants to give me the old "what-for" about forum-related stuff. Get as mad as you want, I really don't care. Curse at me, call me names, wow, but my answer stands.

Yup. I told a captain one time that "the last time I got what I wanted by yelling at everyone I was still in diapers."

If someone isn't entirely sure they want to help you, yelling at them is probably going to move them onto the "no" side of the fence. It CERTAINLY isn't going to change the system. If you really want to make it a better place to work, work to get what you're looking for now, then tell the company about the problem so they can attempt to fix it...or more likely throw it into the circular file in the interest of cost savings.

 

[thepotato232]

How senior do 9K's ATR slots in Guam go these days, out of curiosity? I would imagine that's a pretty competitive bid. All the respect for the world for the Mochahagati crowd, but this business of multi turbine PIC requirements is dishearteningly common. Is the ATR more or less like those "senior seminar" courses back in college, where people go to do their time and then get to move on fairly quickly? Or is it more of a slog these days?

I know someone brought it up earlier in the thread, but the new post-merger Era in Alaska sounds promising. Unless I'm misinformed, they've got a significant fleet of 1900s and a couple of Dashes, besides the more dedicated bush flying equipment. I'd point out that Great Lakes is still hiring, but the stories I hear from the guys in the outstation bases make my time at the company seem luxurious by comparison.

There are more than a few carriers out there who are looking for jets, particularly if you'd like to go expat anytime in the future. Something to keep in mind, depending on what your plans are. The RJ regionals are a crapshoot - every company's different, every company changes, and two guys can have very different stories simply as a result of being hired one month apart. Of course, the companies aren't unique in those regards.

 

[jrh]

How senior do 9K's ATR slots in Guam go these days, out of curiosity? I would imagine that's a pretty competitive bid.

The captain slots go more or less senior, and the FO slots go very junior. The most junior captain has a March, 2010 date of hire, but 80% of the captains have 5+ years with the company, and the top third have 13+ years with the company.

FOs, on the other hand, are a different story. The most junior FO was hired off the street this spring because nobody wanted to "upgrade" from within the company. It's a cut in both pay and QOL to go from 402 captain to ATR FO.

Is the ATR more or less like those "senior seminar" courses back in college, where people go to do their time and then get to move on fairly quickly? Or is it more of a slog these days?

I don't know. I haven't been around long enough to personally know any of the ATR pilots.

I know someone brought it up earlier in the thread, but the new post-merger Era in Alaska sounds promising. Unless I'm misinformed, they've got a significant fleet of 1900s and a couple of Dashes, besides the more dedicated bush flying equipment. I'd point out that Great Lakes is still hiring, but the stories I hear from the guys in the outstation bases make my time at the company seem luxurious by comparison.

There are more than a few carriers out there who are looking for jets, particularly if you'd like to go expat anytime in the future. Something to keep in mind, depending on what your plans are. The RJ regionals are a crapshoot - every company's different, every company changes, and two guys can have very different stories simply as a result of being hired one month apart. Of course, the companies aren't unique in those regards.

This is all exactly why I'm so leery about going to another regional.

People keep saying you have to take a step back to take a step forward, but I don't believe them. Maybe it's true for airline careers, but it's surprising what happens when one draws hard lines in the sand and says, "Not gonna do it," to sub-standard job offers. I'm convinced if I'm patient and willing to fly outside of airlines, I can continuously move either laterally or upwards.

 

[dasleben]

The captain slots go more or less senior, and the FO slots go very junior. The most junior captain has a March, 2010 date of hire, but 80% of the captains have 5+ years with the company, and the top third have 13+ years with the company.

Wow cool, I'd be holding ATR CA. That was my plan for a good while. But of course, I was 1.5 years from holding it when I got hired, then 1.5 years from holding it when I left 2 years later.

 

[milleR]

Well, if you spend some more time at Cape the odd's are good you'll probably find something that will work for you. You're networking every day there so just keep plugging away and something will come up eventually.

 

[milleR]

Wow cool, I'd be holding ATR CA. That was my plan for a good while. But of course, I was 1.5 years from holding it when I got hired, then 1.5 years from holding it when I left 2 years later.

So, you're saying I should go back before my LOA expires next month?

 

[Seggy]

One thing you need to consider here is that there are going to be an awfully high number of senior airline folks retiring over the next 5-10 years. Yes, it will be a short step back to go to a Regional, but I truly think it will open more doors for you than to stay at 9K. Also, even if the economy recovers, I think companies are going to be gun shy about buying a fancy biz jet. Might make the corporate gigs harder to get into. Now I would be singing a different tune if NetJets was recalling their guys on furlough and CitationShares was growing instead of most likely going away...

Nothing AT ALL against 9K. GREAT group of pilots and real professionals. Quality all around. Just saying!

 

[jrh]

So, you're saying I should go back before my LOA expires next month?

No. You should stay away. Ever since you left, 9K has gone down hill and really really sucks.

Of course, I'm only saying this because your seniority number > my seniority number.