Advice for a non-newbie to keep progressing
- Thread starter jrh
- Start date
jrh
Well-Known Member
Excellent points you make. Thanks for giving me something to think about.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
If you want any part of an airline career, you will have to take a step back to get a step forward. And right now, Jet time is in demand. Whether you are a current PIC or a SIC that went to a tprop operation to get the TPIC, you still need the jet time as of today.
I know corporate world is much more lateral moves, you can expect fairly even QoL and Pay curves.
Airlines, not so much. You're going to be the junior guy with less pay than you made before. Just a fact of life.
I know corporate world is much more lateral moves, you can expect fairly even QoL and Pay curves.
Airlines, not so much. You're going to be the junior guy with less pay than you made before. Just a fact of life.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
That's my biggest hesitation with the airlines. The monotony of even 135 freight drives me up a wall some times. The "safety" of it, is relatively...well, relative. For me, I also like being home every night. That means more to me than other side of the coin, where I have lot's of free time, but it's either away, or it's not really free (because you're on call) or you have to leave for multiple random days during the week to go to work. Me? I want to go into work, fly all day, then come home at the end of the day - that's what does it for me - that and not wanting to be bored while I'm flying. It doesn't have to be "dangerous" to not be "boring" but, there needs to be variety, at least for me.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
You know, if you treat it as a "job" and not as an extension of your personality, it's alright. But when the ego line asymptotically approaches your job line on a graph, that's where the problems start.
I enjoy my job, the profession is rather 'meh' at times, but when the "BS" bucket is heavier than the "Loot" bucket, I'll probably early retire and start up that Meth lab I've always been talking about.
milleR
Well-Known Member
I said for years that I'd never work for a regional, but after 3 years at 9k that's exactly where I wound up. I just came to the realization that my career goals have changed since I started flying, and if I want to achieve them I need some 121 turbine time. I've also been very pleasantly surprised to find that I enjoy it! I like the crews, the aircraft I'm on (Q400), and honestly, I like shutting the door and having my own world up front for once.
Thanks to bankruptcy I'm starting soon at my second airline in six months. The thought of another year on first year pay blows, but I'm trying to look at the big picture, and I think dealing with some suck today is worth it for the payoff down the road. It was a really tough decision process that got me here, and I know the honeymoon will end, but I'm pretty happy with it so far. YMMV.
Thanks to bankruptcy I'm starting soon at my second airline in six months. The thought of another year on first year pay blows, but I'm trying to look at the big picture, and I think dealing with some suck today is worth it for the payoff down the road. It was a really tough decision process that got me here, and I know the honeymoon will end, but I'm pretty happy with it so far. YMMV.
The quote that comes to mind when I read this is: "If you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time."
You say you'd be "willing" to do each of the above, like it would be some kind of distraction from some higher purpose you might have, but the reality is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of pilot who are dead set on each of those market segments with all the motivation they can muster to get those jobs. Meanwhile, you're merely "willing."
Question: if you were an interviewer which one of those attitudes would you rather hire?
Just a thought, both Key Lime and AmFlight have operations in NE. (I'm going by memory, but that's where you're from, right?) Depending on where you are in the state you could easily find yourself back home every day building multi turbine time while you figure out what you want to do.
The impression that I get is that 121 time begets more 121 time. You and I are both at the stage in our careers where we could go either way, and although some manage to crossover between those market segments most usually end up in one or the other. Speaking for myself, I'm fairly certain then my next job will be a 121 gig, even a regional if need be, as that's the way I feel I want to go.
It's been said before on this and a few other forums but unless you want to be a 9K lifer at some point it's best to pull the plug and go do seething else. Not knocking 9K at all, just calling it like it is.
If I were you I wouldn't worry about "next" and instead come up with what you really want a decade from now to look like and then do everything you can to aim for that goal. Yes, that may include short term QOL sacrifices but ultimately it'll be worth it.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Regarding life at a regional:
I'm a junior commuting reserve guy at a regional with what I consider pretty good work rules. We're also 'fat' on pilots* which, as far as trying to maximize QOL (not necessarily money) goes, is a wonderful thing. Financially, due to some "special items" I do alright, and don't work too terribly hard to do it—once you get over the 15-hour duty days and the whole commuting-to-reserve thing.
Previous to this, I was making MORE money flying LESS airplane LESS hours per month with arguably alright quality of life (although the lack of travel benefits was a deal-breaker for long-term staying). The job had approximately zero upgrade or career progression beyond becoming a management pilot, and while I might do okay managing pilots and certainly wouldn't mind the resulting pay override, I quit my very lucrative desk job so that I wouldn't have to fly a desk all the time. The point is, in order to move forward you will probably have to go backwards a bit. I have, in terms of my compensation—but I think my quality of life is much better (and my blood pressure correspondingly lower) these days.
I also didn't have any air conditioning packs. Which, in Allentown, PA in the summertime with record humidity, is a surprisingly nice feature...
As The Shorter of the Dougs says:
Loot-versus-BS is the tradeoff that you have to consider for all jobs. It's why I don't have a desk job. Loot good. BS greater than loot, though.
If you really want to be a major airline pilot, Delta's hiring minimums include 1,000 fixed-wing turbofan or turbopropeller time. Act accordingly.
* That's a function of who you talk to and what day of the month it is, of course...they're always short at 0403 when they call me.
I'm a junior commuting reserve guy at a regional with what I consider pretty good work rules. We're also 'fat' on pilots* which, as far as trying to maximize QOL (not necessarily money) goes, is a wonderful thing. Financially, due to some "special items" I do alright, and don't work too terribly hard to do it—once you get over the 15-hour duty days and the whole commuting-to-reserve thing.
Previous to this, I was making MORE money flying LESS airplane LESS hours per month with arguably alright quality of life (although the lack of travel benefits was a deal-breaker for long-term staying). The job had approximately zero upgrade or career progression beyond becoming a management pilot, and while I might do okay managing pilots and certainly wouldn't mind the resulting pay override, I quit my very lucrative desk job so that I wouldn't have to fly a desk all the time. The point is, in order to move forward you will probably have to go backwards a bit. I have, in terms of my compensation—but I think my quality of life is much better (and my blood pressure correspondingly lower) these days.
I also didn't have any air conditioning packs. Which, in Allentown, PA in the summertime with record humidity, is a surprisingly nice feature...
As The Shorter of the Dougs says:
Right now the "loot" bucket is heavier than the "BS" bucket, but we'll see about how the bankruptcy shakes out.
Loot-versus-BS is the tradeoff that you have to consider for all jobs. It's why I don't have a desk job. Loot good. BS greater than loot, though.
In other words you're largely qualified for most entry-level airline jobs.
You can manage decent quality of life at a regional, but everyone suffers the first year. In a way I think that's to make sure that no non-hackers are allowed to stick around, as perverse as it is.
You basically answered your own question, since you aren't into the "traditional" RJ dance or turbopropeller/turbine freight scenes. I'd go do some charter and corporate then.
If you really want to be a major airline pilot, Delta's hiring minimums include 1,000 fixed-wing turbofan or turbopropeller time. Act accordingly.
I could care less about building time and checking boxes. I'm in this to be paid (well, okay, to get some money...) and to enjoy a nice, flexible lifestyle. It can be done, but believe me—I occasionally have to shovel some...unmentionable things...in order to keep the good life I have on days off.
* That's a function of who you talk to and what day of the month it is, of course...they're always short at 0403 when they call me.
LeonPhelps
Well-Known Member
I'm in the same exact boat, but I still have a while before my contract is up. Ya know, you can always wait on your shot at the ATR in Guam if you're adventurous... or just go part time, fly enough to keep your CASS, and fly king airs.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the insight, everyone.
You're all right--I need to figure out a better long term goal in order to give myself a clearer short term goal. Although I already knew that before posting this thread.
As I reflect on my career to this point, I realized a couple things. First, checking boxes is easy. It's easy to say, "I can't go anywhere without ATP minimums, so I need to build total time. I'll flight instruct." Or, "I can't do much without multi time, so I need to build some multi time. I'll haul freight in this twin for a while." The path is clear and obvious. It's satisfying to know you must do X, Y, or Z, then go out and do it. It's a lot harder to finish the statement, "I won't be happy with my flying career until..." In other words, "Happiness" isn't just another box to check. For the past six or eight years, I've been mindlessly chugging along, checking boxes which I know must be checked, but now I'm reaching the hard part.
Second, one of the core frustrations I have with many jobs across the industry has nothing to do with flying. It comes from what I see as a lack of respect by employers for their employees. This has factored in to my job decisions significantly, no matter if I realized it at the time or not. Back when I was running the flight school, I knew my boss and I had a deep respect for each other, which is one of the reasons I stayed as long as I did. When I decided to come to my current airline, all my research indicated they respected their pilot group and made an honest effort to treat them well, rather than use and abuse them to the fullest extent possible.
That's not something I see with the vast majority of airlines, freight companies, or even some corporate gigs. Therefore, I have a hard time bringing myself to work for them. Sure, I complain about airline flying being boring, or unstable, or whatever, but that's not what's ultimately stopping me from doing it. It's the overall sense of disrespect I sense from the system, and I don't want any part of it.
Here's the criteria I've come up with for my next job:
1) Build experience with a new type of flying....new plane, new region of the world, new operating rules, something new. No experience is wasted. Coming to my current gig has taught me a tremendous amount about the airline world, both good and bad. At a new job, even if the experience doesn't build directly towards a goal for ten years from now, it will help me know what I want as a long term goal.
2) Be respected by employer. This means pay/QOL have to be reasonable, relative to what they ask of me.
3) Don't have a long term commitment if I want to switch. I'll give something a shot for a year or so. I mean, I won't flake out after three months. But I don't want to start as an SIC somewhere, knowing it's going to take years and years to upgrade into the aircraft/seat I actually want.
Who knows where this will lead. Maybe to charter. Maybe up to Alaska...was just talking this morning to a JCer about opportunities up there. Maybe somewhere else. I need to polish up my resume and start working my contacts to find out who even has openings. Time will tell.
Any more advice is still appreciated.
You're all right--I need to figure out a better long term goal in order to give myself a clearer short term goal. Although I already knew that before posting this thread.
As I reflect on my career to this point, I realized a couple things. First, checking boxes is easy. It's easy to say, "I can't go anywhere without ATP minimums, so I need to build total time. I'll flight instruct." Or, "I can't do much without multi time, so I need to build some multi time. I'll haul freight in this twin for a while." The path is clear and obvious. It's satisfying to know you must do X, Y, or Z, then go out and do it. It's a lot harder to finish the statement, "I won't be happy with my flying career until..." In other words, "Happiness" isn't just another box to check. For the past six or eight years, I've been mindlessly chugging along, checking boxes which I know must be checked, but now I'm reaching the hard part.
Second, one of the core frustrations I have with many jobs across the industry has nothing to do with flying. It comes from what I see as a lack of respect by employers for their employees. This has factored in to my job decisions significantly, no matter if I realized it at the time or not. Back when I was running the flight school, I knew my boss and I had a deep respect for each other, which is one of the reasons I stayed as long as I did. When I decided to come to my current airline, all my research indicated they respected their pilot group and made an honest effort to treat them well, rather than use and abuse them to the fullest extent possible.
That's not something I see with the vast majority of airlines, freight companies, or even some corporate gigs. Therefore, I have a hard time bringing myself to work for them. Sure, I complain about airline flying being boring, or unstable, or whatever, but that's not what's ultimately stopping me from doing it. It's the overall sense of disrespect I sense from the system, and I don't want any part of it.
Here's the criteria I've come up with for my next job:
1) Build experience with a new type of flying....new plane, new region of the world, new operating rules, something new. No experience is wasted. Coming to my current gig has taught me a tremendous amount about the airline world, both good and bad. At a new job, even if the experience doesn't build directly towards a goal for ten years from now, it will help me know what I want as a long term goal.
2) Be respected by employer. This means pay/QOL have to be reasonable, relative to what they ask of me.
3) Don't have a long term commitment if I want to switch. I'll give something a shot for a year or so. I mean, I won't flake out after three months. But I don't want to start as an SIC somewhere, knowing it's going to take years and years to upgrade into the aircraft/seat I actually want.
Who knows where this will lead. Maybe to charter. Maybe up to Alaska...was just talking this morning to a JCer about opportunities up there. Maybe somewhere else. I need to polish up my resume and start working my contacts to find out who even has openings. Time will tell.
Any more advice is still appreciated.
NickH
Uber Driver
I think you should look toward EMS. Generally the companies treat their crews extremely well, and that is the most important thing to me as an employee. Times for King Air jobs are are around 3KTT and 1K Multi, some want some turbine. They want SPIFR experience, 121 time is a negative. Starting pay is typically mid 50s to mid 70s. Schedules can be awesome, especially if you are on call rather than at the airport all day. It's an expanding industry, which I think is important for longevity. For me it's the dream job!
inigo88
Composite-lover
It almost seems like the difference between being an EMT on a BLS transport rig vs. being a paramedic on an ALS trauma call. The pilot equivalent anyway.
It almost seems like the difference between being an EMT on a BLS transport rig vs. being a paramedic on an ALS trauma call. The pilot equivalent anyway.
Not necessarily. Because BLS/ALS rigs do the same thing....911 transport from a scene to a hospital, just with a different level of care.
It's more like the difference between an ambulance working 911 and bringing patients to initial hospital care from pre-hospital (field) care; and an ambulance that's doing interfacility (hospital to hospital) transfers of more-or-less stable patients who have been in hospital care already. Since fixed-wing doesn't do "on scene" work, they're mainly the hospital to hospital transport work.
🦈💜
All dragon~
Can I ask a sidebar question here? Why is it that people seem to look so side-long at 9K? They're about the only airline I'd want to fly for.
Generally speaking, my ideal 'end up' jobs in aviation, in rough order, would be:
1. Airtanker pilot;
2. Warbird pilot (hah);
3. Beaver pilot up in AK;
4. 9K flying.
Anyway, after all these comments making 9K sound like a 'career killer', I'm starting to wonder if there's something I'm missing.
~Fox
(NB. Actually, there are a lot of other 'end up' jobs involving aerobatic aircraft, but most of them aren't really within reach. Right now I'm short of #1 because I'm missing the existence of a viable airtanker industry, short of #2 by half a lifetime experience, who I know, and luck, and short #3 and #4 by at least 800 hours.)
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
9K is not a career killer. I can attest to that. It's looked at favorably by many employers.
