Advice for a non-newbie to keep progressing

[jrh]

Here's something I've been thinking about lately:

The contract I have with my current employer will be coming to an end in September and I'll be free to leave, if I want to. By then, I'll have ~4000 TT and ~800 multi. All of it's in pistons, aside from about 35 or 40 hours of single engine turbine time (Piper Meridian).

I came to my current gig because I wanted to change up my life, travel the world, have an adventure, and build my resume while I was at it. Mission accomplished. No regrets.

I'm not dying to move on, but I can't see myself staying here long-term, either.

So what should I do now, in order to have a decent life and keep building my resume? My long term goals are broad and not well-defined. I'd be willing to fly for a major airline--emphasis on *willing* to. It's not a dead set goal, but I think the upsides would outweigh the downsides. Same for an LCC. Or a really good corporate gig. Or air ambulance, depending on the operator. Or aerial firefighting. Basically, I'm trying to get in to a career sort of position, something I can last 5+ years at.

Thing is, I have zero interest in doing the traditional regional jet dance. I've ridden around on enough jumpseats to know even the "good" regionals aren't good enough to meet my standards for pay, QOL, and stability.

I'm also not into the turbine freight scene, either. I know a lot of people go to places like Amflight to build turbine time. Not knocking them, but I'm not willing to take such a big hit in pay and QOL in order to chase turbine time. I'm not a time builder. I'm a pilot who wants a good job in the here and now, which will lead to an even better job later. I don't want to get "dead ended" by going to something like a single engine turbine job, an Alaska job that will lead to nothing but other Alaska jobs, etc.

With all this in mind, what would you do? I have some contacts at a couple charter operators and might be able to get in with them, flying King Airs. If I go that route but decide I don't like corporate flying, will I realistically be able to go to a major, or even LCC, with the turbine time I'd have built? Or will it really only be relevant to other corporate/charter gigs? What if I stick with my airline for another year or two and try to get involved with titles outside of line flying, like being a regional chief pilot or work for the training department, even though it's all in piston twins? Would those help me get anywhere?

It's funny, because so many new pilots can't wait to build time and check boxes. I've kind of drifted through my career, slowly building time and checking boxes along the way. Now, I have a long list of minimums met, yet I don't know what to do next.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I don't want to get "dead ended" by going to something like a single engine turbine job, an Alaska job that will lead to nothing but other Alaska jobs, etc.

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There is more than single engine jobs up here. From what I hear ERA is desperate for pilots, and they have multi engine airplanes. It might take some time to get there. Also there is Warbelows. Guardian Flight might also take someone with your times, but you might need some Alaska time.

Just some options.

 

[jrh]

There is more than single engine jobs up here. From what I hear ERA is desperate for pilots, and they have multi engine airplanes. It might take some time to get there. Also there is Warbelows. Guardian Flight might also take someone with your times, but you might need some Alaska time.

I might not have been clear in my original post. I didn't mean Alaska only has single engine jobs. I meant I didn't want to do anything that would pigeon hole me into a particular career track / spin my wheels for years and only be able to move on to jobs I could currently move on to right now. I don't want to do a single engine job (such as Planesense/Alpha Flying with their PC-12s), nor do I want to do an Alaska job that only leads to other Alaska jobs.

A few pilots at my company came here from PenAir because they said they were on track to stay in Alaska for the rest of their lives unless they made the switch. My buddy at Everts told me he upgraded out of the DC-6 to the EMB-120 because, although the -6 has way more cool points, what the heck is he going to do with thousands of hours -6 time, other than keep flying at Everts for the rest of his life? Even now, he's not sure where he would go with the EMB-120 time, but at least it's turbine. He told me he could probably get me in at Everts, but I'm not sure I want to turn out like him

In any case, thanks for the heads up on those places.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I might not have been clear in my original post. I didn't mean Alaska only has single engine jobs. I meant I didn't want to do anything that would pigeon hole me into a particular career track / spin my wheels for years and only be able to move on to jobs I could currently move on to right now. I don't want to do a single engine job (such as Planesense/Alpha Flying with their PC-12s), nor do I want to do an Alaska job that only leads to other Alaska jobs.

A few pilots at my company came here from PenAir because they said they were on track to stay in Alaska for the rest of their lives unless they made the switch. My buddy at Everts told me he upgraded out of the DC-6 to the EMB-120 because, although the -6 has way more cool points, what the heck is he going to do with thousands of hours -6 time, other than keep flying at Everts for the rest of his life? Even now, he's not sure where he would go with the EMB-120 time, but at least it's turbine. He told me he could probably get me in at Everts, but I'm not sure I want to turn out like him

In any case, thanks for the heads up on those places.

Gotcha. That makes sense.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Get to 1k multi and you'd be good for any of the king air jobs you see around, or some right seat Hawker/beechjet/etc type. Air ambo offers good QoL if you can move.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Inverted25]

Get to 1k multi and you'd be good for any of the king air jobs you see around, or some right seat Hawker/beechjet/etc type. Air ambo offers good QoL if you can move.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

What king air jobs require 1k multi? The local operator around here who flies them puts guys in with 1500tt and 500 multi

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

What king air jobs require 1k multi? The local operator around here who flies them puts guys in with 1500tt and 500 multi

1500/500 for captain of a king air?

 

[dasleben]

Decent number of guys go from your gig to bizjet SIC positions, but I'm sure you know that. I'd dig into those contacts the best you can if that's what you want to do. You could definitely progress from that sort of environment to a major (a few former 135 charter guys I know are now at JetBlue), but they all had jet experience. I'd try to work your way into something beyond a King Air if your eventual goal is potentially a major airline.

Beyond that...the quickest way to decent turbine experience is going to be a regional. I hate to say it, but there are lots of 4000+ hour 9Kers flying for SKW, RAH, etc.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I'll chime in and say that regardless of what path you choose to follow, you'll find yourself going down it for quite a while. You say you don't want to "pigeon hole" yourself, but that's what traditionally happens when you get settled in to any one segment of the industry. It's possible to cross over, as Zap has done, but it isn't all that common, especially going from corporate to airline.

An example: I did the CFI and piston freight thing for a few years. I was on the verge of applying to the regionals, because that's all they ever preached at Riddle and that's all I knew. Right around that time, I got an offer out of the blue to come to my current corporate gig. I jumped all over it, seeing it as a chance to try something different and test the waters. Over the past 5 years, I've had a few other corporate job opportunities come my way...none of which I was actively seeking. I guess it's not necessarily being "pigeon holed", but it's hard to turn away when other solid opportunities come knocking.

 

[jtrain609]

Go to a regional. Here's why:

-The picture painted on the intertubes isn't accurate. "Everybody" on the internet says the regionals suck, don't do it, it's the worst thing since worst things, and you'll hate your life. Most of these people don't work at regionals. The only people that have a legit gripe like this are the ones that have managed to get stuck on reserve for a prolonged period of time. I'll admit, a long stay on reserve at a regional is pretty crappy.

-The picture painted on a jumpseat isn't very likely accurate either. Pilots complain, they're professionals at it. We complain to mainline guys that are on our jumpseat, we complain to other regional guys, blah blah blah. We commiserate with each other, and if you get a wide eyed kid on the jumpseat, some guys make it their duty to make sure they don't make the same mistakes that got them to their seat in an RJ.

-A lot of guys at regionals have done little else, and thus, their frame of reference is constrained. They think everything sucks, it has always sucked, and it always will suck.

So, having been through the period of being ultra angry (probably angrier than most), getting furloughed, and realizing that the other side ain't so grand, let me paint you a different picture.

Bidding 50% in my seat means I get options every month; I can work a lot and make ok money, or I can get a ton of days off. Most months, I've chosen days off, as my wife is the one with the real job. 15 days off a month gets me around $32,000 a year on 3rd year pay ($37 an hour). If I were to bring it down to 12 days off a month and work productive trips, I could make $50,000 a year on 3rd year pay easily ($37*100*12=$44,000 in hard money, plus a few thousand easily in soft money).

Additionally, there are some months I've been able to handle 18 days off, with 10 day off stretches no problem.

But here's the catch; I've got ok seniority at a good regional. I have no idea what life is like at other carriers, since I don't work there.

The other catch is that "Who dares, wins." Unless you're willing to bite the bullet and get that seniority number and start moving up, you'll never get anywhere. I gambled and bought myself a furlough. Others have gambled and gotten themselves hard lines after 3 months of being online. You have no idea of how it'll turn out.

But I can tell you that my QOL is higher than a guy sitting reserve on the 737 at CAL. Heck, my QOL might be better than a guy holding a junior line at CAL on the 737 in EWR. Their work rules are horrible, their pay is horrible, they don't get benefits for the first 6 months, blah blah blah.

But I'd still take a job there in a heartbeat because the potential for the future is better than what I deal with at my company, even though it'd be a QOL hit.

 

[Jet]

Have you thought about Cathay Pacific? FO position, not 2nd officer. They have US bases.

 

[jrh]

-The picture painted on a jumpseat isn't very likely accurate either. Pilots complain, they're professionals at it. We complain to mainline guys that are on our jumpseat, we complain to other regional guys, blah blah blah. We commiserate with each other, and if you get a wide eyed kid on the jumpseat, some guys make it their duty to make sure they don't make the same mistakes that got them to their seat in an RJ.

Ironically, other than a VERY pissed off Trans States crew (FO was furloughed NWA), I don't hear much complaining when I jumpseat. Not nearly as much as I expected, at least.

Observing the day to day job and lifestyle is what's turned me off to regionals. I've seen the schedules and working environment first hand. I won't go so far as to say it's a *bad* job, but I'm still not interested. It's pretty much the same as what I'm currently doing, except with bigger distances and more people in back.

Bidding 50% in my seat means I get options every month; I can work a lot and make ok money, or I can get a ton of days off. Most months, I've chosen days off, as my wife is the one with the real job. 15 days off a month gets me around $32,000 a year on 3rd year pay ($37 an hour). If I were to bring it down to 12 days off a month and work productive trips, I could make $50,000 a year on 3rd year pay easily ($37*100*12=$44,000 in hard money, plus a few thousand easily in soft money).

Additionally, there are some months I've been able to handle 18 days off, with 10 day off stretches no problem.

But here's the catch; I've got ok seniority at a good regional. I have no idea what life is like at other carriers, since I don't work there.

Dude, you're illustrating my point perfectly! I don't want this to degrade into a who's is bigger than who's debate, but what you just described is exactly what I consider unacceptable pay and QOL. I can make that kind of money at my current employer, flying a nine seat aircraft. I might as well stay where I'm at if that's what I have to look forward to elsewhere.

And BTW, I'm not criticizing you for being satisfied with your position--we all have to decide what's best for our own lives. But I'm looking for better.

The other catch is that "Who dares, wins." Unless you're willing to bite the bullet and get that seniority number and start moving up, you'll never get anywhere. I gambled and bought myself a furlough. Others have gambled and gotten themselves hard lines after 3 months of being online. You have no idea of how it'll turn out.

I'd be more willing go gamble for a higher payout, as you mentioned with going to a 737 job. The problem is that I can't see the risk vs. reward being evenly weighted at regionals. Seems like a lot of risk for a mediocre reward.

 

[jtrain609]

You're right, don't go to another airline, it'll be more of the same.

Enjoy whatever it is that you find, but you won't be finding it at ANY airline.

 

[jrh]

Decent number of guys go from your gig to bizjet SIC positions, but I'm sure you know that. I'd dig into those contacts the best you can if that's what you want to do. You could definitely progress from that sort of environment to a major (a few former 135 charter guys I know are now at JetBlue), but they all had jet experience. I'd try to work your way into something beyond a King Air if your eventual goal is potentially a major airline.

Good to know. My main concern with charter stems from my uncertainty over how majors/LCCs view the time. As long as it's not completely shutting the door to airline flying, charter work sounds like a solid next step for me.

And I hear what you're saying about turbojet versus turboprop time. All of the charter places I've been thinking about also have jets in their fleets. They start all of their new hires in King Airs and upgrade from within.

 

[Seggy]

Ironically, other than a VERY pissed off Trans States crew (FO was furloughed NWA), I don't hear much complaining when I jumpseat.

That is a little fishy. If he was furloughed from NWA he would have been recalled by the Double Breasted Blazers at Delta. He might have had his airline confused...?

 

[jrh]

You're right, don't go to another airline, it'll be more of the same.

Enjoy whatever it is that you find, but you won't be finding it at ANY airline.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting I might not be happy, even at a major?

 

[derg]

That is a little fishy. If he was furloughed from NWA he would have been recalled by the Double Breasted Blazers at Delta. He might have had his airline confused...?

Why would a furloughed NWA pilot be at Trans States when he has recall rights?

 

[Seggy]

Exactly!

 

[jtrain609]

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting I might not be happy, even at a major?

Correct.

The junior guys on the 737 over at CAL have been making $60,000 a year to have 12 days off per month, even less on training months (they train on days off). That was after making $30,000 their first year and having no health insurance until they had been on property for 6 months. They're likely still on reserve, and have been getting pounded for years.

Junior guy at US Airways on the EMB-190? $45,000 a year, 12 days off with bad reserve rules.

Junior guy at United? He's furloughed, has been for years. I think they went back to 1997 hires at one point for being the most junior person the list.

Junior guy at Delta is probably doing alright, flying the DC-9, probably has some days off and some decent ched.

What you want does not exist at the airlines, at all. The job is, in fact, the same. It is monotonous and boring. To me that means that it's reasonably predictable and safe, which means I can make it home to my wife at the end of every trip. Not much else matters more to me, to tell you the truth.

As for the pay and days off, it'll take time that you don't want to spend to get to a place that it sounds like you're not interested in being. How long has it taken Doug to get senior enough to hold a decent line on the 767 with Delta doing mostly international trips? 12 years? Do you want to slog out 5 legs a day in a mad dog with 12 days off per month for the next 8-10 years making $100,000 a year?

It doesn't sound like it to me, so don't go. If you know it's where you don't want to be, then don't waste your time.

 

[jrh]

That is a little fishy. If he was furloughed from NWA he would have been recalled by the Double Breasted Blazers at Delta. He might have had his airline confused...?

You're right. He was furloughed *TWA*, not NWA. My mistake.