Advanced Airline Pilot Programs

DE727UPS said:
Skywest:
Beejal Patel

Ummm....they don't seem too interested in mentioning that ASA just got bought out by another regional which does minimal, as in ONE in all of 2005, hiring from the AATP program. But....as long as ASA keeps hiring, the 250 hour FSA guy looks like he's in good shape. I just hope somewhere along the line the FSA ab initio guys learn how finicky the regional airline hiring market can be. Some of the DCA guys that recently went to Comair might want to chime in.....
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Beejal passed up several opportunities to work at other airlines to wait for SkyWest. He was very qualified, with his ATP and not the typical 600/100 applicant.

I think it will be very interesting to see how SkyWest influences the Direct Track program in the near future. It is my understanding that they do not look upon it favorably.

In my new hire class at ASA, we had three FlightSafety Direct Track people. I know there are several in the hiring pool, waiting for the next class to start. :)

G
 
"I think it will be very interesting to see how SkyWest influences the Direct Track program in the near future. It is my understanding that they do not look upon it favorably'

Why the hell should they? Skywest, for all it's faults as an employer of pilots (don't know how to say that nicer as they are a non-union airline...hehe) has always hired well qualified guys. Heck, they are the ones who don't like multi-engine timebuilding programs. Why would they buy off on the ab initio gimmick?
 
What's the hurry?

To all of the wannabe pilots out there who want to "make it to the right seat of a jet or turboprop by age 19", I ask the following question:

Do you think, at age 19 with 500 hours, that you are capable of taking command of a regional jet with 50 passengers, 1 Flight Attendant, and a jumpseater, and fly it down to Cat I ILS minimums, landing on a wet/contaminated runway with a crosswind that is at the limits of the airplane, with an inoperative autopilot and an incapacitated Captain?

As a First Officer, or Second in Command, that is exactly what you would be expected to do.

Now granted this is an extreme example. But take away the part about the incapacitated Captain, and you have a very real situation that can, and does occur. And BTW, we have had two occurrences of incapacitated Captains at my airline in the last year.

Think about it.
 
"Do you think, at age 19 with 500 hours, that you are capable of taking command of a regional jet with 50 passengers, 1 Flight Attendant, and a jumpseater, and fly it down to Cat I ILS minimums, landing on a wet/contaminated runway with a crosswind that is at the limits of the airplane, with an inoperative autopilot and an incapacitated Captain"

Has nothing to do with age. More to do with experience and background. But, yeah, do I think an FSA 250 hour, ab initio wonder, can handle that? I'd say not to my satisfaction. But to the satisfation of several regional airlines and the FAA, yes. Sorta sad, isn't it....
 
Not saying I agree with it but back at the academy I regularly saw 19yos going into the right seats of A319s back in Europe with 200-300hrs.
 
I think it will be very interesting to see how SkyWest influences the Direct Track program in the near future. It is my understanding that they do not look upon it favorably.
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They do not look favorably on this. And, as Don said, they don't look favorably on multi-engine time building programs. SKYW's feeling is that experience comes from just that, experience. But the experience has to be with a plan or a goal in mind that you are working towards. And flying 1-2-3 or 4hr legs in a Seminole with the autopilot on, or acting as saftey pilot while in cruise flight, does not add up to good experience. I am sure some would argue that I and I see the point. I have been safety pilot in IMC shooting approaches to UT airports where I felt I learned more than 20-30hr of instructing. Some of that time is valid. But the notion of "time building" is flawed because the goal is rack up the Hobbs time, not build experience.

I am not going to say my track was the best, there are so many ways of going. But I got on to Jetcareers in March of 2002 and listened to a lot of advice. Because of that advice I did my ratings all part 61, got my CFI with 330TT, instructed to the minimums of SkyWest and got hired. And I can tell you that this route was fantastic for teaching me how to fly and what the instrument rules are all about. It also got to the minimums to be hired. And I'll tell you what, I feel like I know the minimum most of the time out there. Sure I can fly the plane but that is the easy part.

Supercell and all those out there that are wantng to get there as fast as you can, take your time. You will be happy you did in the end.
 
skydog said:
To all of the wannabe pilots out there who want to "make it to the right seat of a jet or turboprop by age 19", I ask the following question:

Do you think, at age 19 with 500 hours, that you are capable of taking command of a regional jet with 50 passengers, 1 Flight Attendant, and a jumpseater, and fly it down to Cat I ILS minimums, landing on a wet/contaminated runway with a crosswind that is at the limits of the airplane, with an inoperative autopilot and an incapacitated Captain?

As a First Officer, or Second in Command, that is exactly what you would be expected to do.

Now granted this is an extreme example. But take away the part about the incapacitated Captain, and you have a very real situation that can, and does occur. And BTW, we have had two occurrences of incapacitated Captains at my airline in the last year.

Think about it.
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Very good point, even though this is an extreme example, you're still expected to be able to fly in the worst possible situation as a pro. Now, whether it has to do with age or experience, if you have the intense training, where you're constantly practicing these situations, then as a 19 year old who is inexperienced I can honestly say I'm not 100% sure, but I would imagine I'd be comfortable doing the worst......As long as I had the intense training under my belt.

(6 pages in 4 days, haha)
 
Intense training means nothing without currency. If you're not doing those procedures all the time you won't be as fresh on them and you won't react as quickly.

It's my opinion that experience helps to combat this. The more time you fly, the more crazy stuff you see, and the better prepared you are to deal with a situation when conditions are varsity.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Intense training means nothing without currency. If you're not doing those procedures all the time you won't be as fresh on them and you won't react as quickly.

It's my opinion that experience helps to combat this. The more time you fly, the more crazy stuff you see, and the better prepared you are to deal with a situation when conditions are varsity.
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Ok, obviously you're going to be current coming out of Airline Indoc.
 
supercell86 said:
(6 pages in 4 days, haha)
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You keep highlighting that fact....At first I was willing to give you resonable doubt that you weren't a "troll" that or an attention • with some 80+ post under your belt. And that your thread was asked out of an honest need to have your question answered.
But your continued fasination at how many pages your post has caused people to reply in X ammount of days. Is leaving little or any doubt as to your true intentions.

-Matthew
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
You keep highlighting that fact....At first I was willing to give you resonable doubt that you weren't a "troll" that or an attention • with some 80+ post under your belt. And that your thread was asked out of an honest need to have your question answered.
But your continued fasination at how many pages your post has caused people to reply in X ammount of days. Is leaving little or any doubt as to your true intentions.

-Matthew
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My TRUE intention is to get honest answers as to how to get to the regionals the fastest way possible. I'm sorry that I had to throw a quick joke in there a couple of times, I mean nothing by it, clam down Matthew, lol. :bandit: YES, I'm sooooo fasinated and obsessed with the 6 pages of my post...lighten up
 
Who cares about indoc? I care about 5 months after indoc when you not done a real instrument apprroach to mins in a few weeks.
 
supercell86 said:
YES, I'm sooooo fasinated and obsessed with the 6 pages of my post...lighten up
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Too late for you to be sarcastic about that. You've already shown that intention even if it wasn't your true intention.

Now that I think about it, do you know how many people would not be in prison right now because their crime wasn't their "TRUE" intention LOL.
"But judge, I didn't intend on him dyin'.........."
 
"I am not going to say my track was the best, there are so many ways of going"

Why not? I happen to think your track IS the best. And, no offense with my Skywest non-union comment. I just think you guys deserve a better deal.
 
"back at the academy I regularly saw 19yos going into the right seats of A319s back in Europe with 200-300hrs"

That's crazy. What airline? Were the guys heading to Europe in the same AATP program as the rest? or was it different?
 
John Herreshoff said:
Who cares about indoc? I care about 5 months after indoc when you not done a real instrument apprroach to mins in a few weeks.
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Are you talking about me again :p


DE727, It think the route I took was the best too, that was the reason for the post. But, I can't say that these academies are bad either, I just think they are a waste of money. After instructing for awhile I found that every student has their own pace and ability to process this information. That is the reason I don't really support the fast-paced programs. I saw too many people head into a 141 program and get overwhelmed with the info and end up having to switch to part 61 near the end to save money. The fact is that passing a checkride only means you are ready to go out and learn, you are not knowledgable. That was one thing that really got me; these guys who wanted to jump in the clouds after they got their instrument ticket, in UT of all places too.

One thing I left out in my earlier post was that I joined up with JC in 3/02 and didn't log my first hour until 9/02. I didn't lurk but I asked a lot of questions. And yes, I had the ability to go to FSA, PanAm, Delta, you name it, but I chose a CFI in Montrose, CO for his reputation. I am so glad I made the choices I did, er, listened to the advice I received.
 
supercell86 said:
Ok, obviously you're going to be current coming out of Airline Indoc.
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You mean when you don't touch an aircraft for three weeks and haven't gone to sim training yet?
 
Everyone here is focusing on the "flying" aspect. Can you land in a crosswind with 50 pax? Can you shoot an ILS to minimums? Can you handle a V1 cut? You know, at 19, you might have the motor skills and cognitive function to do those things. The key is do you have the maturity to handle the other 90% of this job that does not specifically relate to flying the airplane?

I was a low-time hire, and I learned quickly to keep my ears and eyes open and to learn from the Captains I flew with. I also learned quickly that getting hired at young age meant a different level of maturity compared to most other 22 year olds. Some young pilots at the airline don't understand that part of it. You are NOT like most other 20 year olds. You are different, and must act that way. Don't worry, some pilots don't grasp it even into their 30's.

All these schools can teach you to have the motor skills and cognitive functions to operate the airplane within an SOP, follow procedures, and get the airplane from A to B. They cannot teach you decision making while you are running out of fuel, diversion options, and nerves. When the weather is shutting down airports left and right, and you must decide on going east or west to divert, and not both. When you must deal with passenger issues, while keeping your cool and not letting them get the best of you. These are the difficult parts of the job that they do not teach at FSA, RAA, or the rest. They teach you to fly the airplane, and some basic decision making. The reason why many pilots are against the low-timers (like I was at one time) is due to a lack of maturity, and a lack of experience to build decisions on. Luckily, I was able to learn from many great pilots while still working on flying the airplane, learning systems, etc. It can be done, but you need to work hard at it, and have an great attitude.

I think most 500-hour hires think they are something special because they got hired with that time. You aren't anything special. You are lucky. You become special over time when you can learn and grow and take advantage of the lucky break you get. It means working 10 times as hard as the other guy with more time and experience under his belt. It means being humble, admitting when you make mistakes (you will), and not getting offended by advice from your Captains. Take an active role in developing yourself into a better airline pilot. Most importantly, focus on learning more than how to fly the airplane you are assigned, because like I said before, this job is only about 10% flying skills.

If you do get hired young and with low time, be prepared to work your tail off. Rightfully so.

Anyways, sorry if this doesn't make sense. I'm typing in a hurry and rambling a bit.
 
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