Advanced Airline Pilot Programs

"If DE wants to mock me with respect to "flight training" knowledge like he did in this thread then he will get the flame right back plain and simple"

Example? I knock certain aspects of your school, primarily Ab Initio. Show me where I knocked you personally with respect to your flight training? Your lack of experience as an airline pilot, maybe, but that's a fact.

You've been flaming away at me for some time now, here and at other threads, and I'm getting kinda sick of it. That's how we ended up here.
 
Again....I'm impressed that my post made it to 5 pages in 2 days, lol. And I will say it again, this is a very hot topic, and that's why I asked it. Also, ramming down your opinion into someones else's throat can be fun....but as long as you let them do it to you, and you kiss and hug afterwards, lol.
 
Okay, I'm *not* stating any opinion at all here, but I just want to hear DE's take on a few situations... I personally, don't mind the way the American system works and I've learned a boatload CFI-ing.

First situation: Europe... Obviously it's well known that they use ab-initio programs. Are European airlines less safe because of this? (Again, I'm just interested in his opinion, I have no opinion one way or the other)

Second situation: What if, as a byproduct of these ab-initio programs, they required 500 hours of jumpseating to watch crews and learn about things they would face in real life... Wouldn't that be a relatively fair compromise? (One more time: looking for an opinion, don't care one way or the other).

/really trying to not start any more fires. Seriously
 
there have been some funny opinions going on in this thread.

What always has struck me as interesting is the rush that people are into to get to a regional job, like its some glorious masterpiece. I think the flight schools sell the idea of a regional job in this way, and play too much upon the "get-there-itis" of the students.

I was surprised at my ground school for colgan that I had the highest hours for the job- the majority of my new colleagues were around the 500-700 range. All very good people, just got picked up early. What my warning to supercell would be that if he does make it in with fewer hours- see it as a product of the industry, of luck, rather than "my training was better and I'm more prepared." With the cyclical shape of how things go in aviation, you'll have some periods of time where the mins are 2000 hours, and some where they need pilots so badly they'll be lowering mins to crazy levels (I do think 500 hours is a bit low for TT).

Interestingly enough, the two pilots in my class that were fresh from the Gulfstream program had the most difficult time getting through the training. I didn't really understand why. They also seemed to be the quickest to snap at other classmates who were new to the 121 environment.

My point to this post is not to bash a program, or a method of achieving your goal, but to remember that the attitudes above WILL NOT WORK in a cockpit environment. Don't bring them there, or else risk the impervious "slap upside the head" from whoever your captain is. I have also noticed that those that "rush" to get to their goal- as in those in other fields that "step on toes" to achieve a position are the most stressed and distrustful of others.

Remember, we are a product of the society we live in. Please don't become a product of the marketing out there!
 
sorrygottarunway said:
there have been some funny opinions going on in this thread.

What always has struck me as interesting is the rush that people are into to get to a regional job, like its some glorious masterpiece. I think the flight schools sell the idea of a regional job in this way, and play too much upon the "get-there-itis" of the students.

I was surprised at my ground school for colgan that I had the highest hours for the job- the majority of my new colleagues were around the 500-700 range. All very good people, just got picked up early. What my warning to supercell would be that if he does make it in with fewer hours- see it as a product of the industry, of luck, rather than "my training was better and I'm more prepared." With the cyclical shape of how things go in aviation, you'll have some periods of time where the mins are 2000 hours, and some where they need pilots so badly they'll be lowering mins to crazy levels (I do think 500 hours is a bit low for TT).

Interestingly enough, the two pilots in my class that were fresh from the Gulfstream program had the most difficult time getting through the training. I didn't really understand why. They also seemed to be the quickest to snap at other classmates who were new to the 121 environment.

My point to this post is not to bash a program, or a method of achieving your goal, but to remember that the attitudes above WILL NOT WORK in a cockpit environment. Don't bring them there, or else risk the impervious "slap upside the head" from whoever your captain is. I have also noticed that those that "rush" to get to their goal- as in those in other fields that "step on toes" to achieve a position are the most stressed and distrustful of others.

Remember, we are a product of the society we live in. Please don't become a product of the marketing out there!
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
Excellent post! I couldn't have put it better myself.
 
sorrygottarunway said:
there have been some funny opinions going on in this thread.

What always has struck me as interesting is the rush that people are into to get to a regional job, like its some glorious masterpiece. I think the flight schools sell the idea of a regional job in this way, and play too much upon the "get-there-itis" of the students.

I was surprised at my ground school for colgan that I had the highest hours for the job- the majority of my new colleagues were around the 500-700 range. All very good people, just got picked up early. What my warning to supercell would be that if he does make it in with fewer hours- see it as a product of the industry, of luck, rather than "my training was better and I'm more prepared." With the cyclical shape of how things go in aviation, you'll have some periods of time where the mins are 2000 hours, and some where they need pilots so badly they'll be lowering mins to crazy levels (I do think 500 hours is a bit low for TT).

Interestingly enough, the two pilots in my class that were fresh from the Gulfstream program had the most difficult time getting through the training. I didn't really understand why. They also seemed to be the quickest to snap at other classmates who were new to the 121 environment.

My point to this post is not to bash a program, or a method of achieving your goal, but to remember that the attitudes above WILL NOT WORK in a cockpit environment. Don't bring them there, or else risk the impervious "slap upside the head" from whoever your captain is. I have also noticed that those that "rush" to get to their goal- as in those in other fields that "step on toes" to achieve a position are the most stressed and distrustful of others.

Remember, we are a product of the society we live in. Please don't become a product of the marketing out there!
Click to expand...

Well said, lol if you think 500TT is low, some people are being hired with 250TT on ERJ's!
 
supercell86 said:
Well said, lol if you think 500TT is low, some people are being hired with 250TT on ERJ's!
Click to expand...

I've heard the same, but on CRJ's.

Just got their commercial and boom, flying a jet.
 
sorrygottarunway said:
What always has struck me as interesting is the rush that people are into to get to a regional job, like its some glorious masterpiece. I think the flight schools sell the idea of a regional job in this way, and play too much upon the "get-there-itis" of the students.
Click to expand...

The sooner people realize this is a job, and ONLY a job, the better the industry will be. I think it is slowly starting to happen - I believe this because hiring mins are so low. Back in the 'glory days' of pre 9/11 regionals required quite a bit more time because there was more competition for the jobs. As qualified applicants went down, minimums went down. There won't ever be a shortage of pilots, but there will be a shortage of 'qualified' applicants. Qualified is determined by the individual airline, however the lowest it would go I'm guessing is 18 years old, COM/MULT/INST. If the pool ever gets to this and there aren't enough people, pay rates will go up.

Even though I ended up at a good regional, I sincerely believe my instructing job I had prior to this was better in terms of being a job. 8-5 M-F, make my own schedule, home 28 nights out of 30, earn 1/3 more than what I do now, doesn't get better than that!

And trying to compare Europe's ways to the US is like apples and oranges. Over there, the barrier to entry for even a CMEL/INST is extremely high AND costly (something like over $100k for just the ratings). Did you ever get questions on the FAA written pertaining to electrical schematics or how many liters of blood a human heart will pump in XX minutes? I don't think so! Over there, there are quite a bit less qualified applicants for the carriers over, hence minimums are lower.

IMO, of course :).

~wheelsup
 
"Are European airlines less safe because of this"

Less safe. I'll say yes, but no so much so that it's a huge deal. What bothers me more is the burden on the Capt to be a babby sitter for a couple hundred hours. Also, I believe that European standard they train to is higher standard than your typical Ab initio in the US. They spend way more time and reach a much higher academic standard in ground school than in the US. I don't think reaching that kind of standard, or doing things the European way, is a good idea here. But I do think those sorts of standards create a more acceptable atmosphere for Ab Initio over there. I still don't like the idea, though, and count my blessings every day that I'll never have to fly with a 250 F/O.

"What if, as a byproduct of these ab-initio programs, they required 500 hours of jumpseating to watch crews and learn about things they would face in real life... Wouldn't that be a relatively fair compromise?"

Yeah. I think it would and I've mentioned that before. Maybe 200 hours in the jumpseat and a requirement to see 75% of the stations in your base. Also, some sort of "super IOE". Let a check airman babysit these guys for their first 200 hours.

All this costs money, though, and I don't see cost cutting airlines going that route as they can hire 250 hour guys now if they want to.

"really trying to not start any more fires"

Look.....I don't lash out unless constantly provoked. When people play nice and disagree respectfully, it makes for a much happier world. I really like it that way....honest....
 
"Interestingly enough, the two pilots in my class that were fresh from the Gulfstream program had the most difficult time getting through the training. I didn't really understand why. They also seemed to be the quickest to snap at other classmates who were new to the 121 environment"

That speaks volumes. Keep us posted. It's funny (sad) the guy who does the hiring at Colgan thinks Gulfstream is a great way to break into the industry.
 
Are you guys kidding? This is the brave new world of Ab Initio.

From FSA's website:

"FlightSafety Academy graduates are among the most sought-after beginner professional pilots in the industry. Don’t believe us?"

"FlightSafety Academy graduates are among the most sought-after beginner professional pilots in the industry. Here are just a few of our graduates that have gone on to a career in the sky.
Class of 2005

Eagle:
Joe Bowers (AATP)
Ron Chaffin (AATP)
Geoff Kruglik (AATP)
Daniel Renton (AATP)

ASA:
Dave Benassi
Dave Carroll
Pete Cascone(AATP)
Joe Cassidy(AATP)
Tony Centofante
J.D. Crane
Jeremy Daun
Raymond Eismann(AATP)
John Fugard(AATP)
Chris Garey (AATP)
Robert Gilbert(AATP)
Kevin Gwinn(AATP)
Chris Huesman(AATP)
Jack Imperiale(AATP)
Robert Ingalls(AATP)
Ryan Johnstone(AATP)
Garrett Kusmack
David Lund
Joe Mulligan
Mark Newton(AATP)
Isai Ortiz(AATP)
Jodin Owens(AATP)
Rich Penfield
Dan Rauscher
Anthony Risinger(AATP)
Tom Roberds
Ryan Roberts
Patrick Smith(AATP)
Eric Starr(AATP)
Jackson Summerall(AATP)
Dean Sweetland(AATP)
Randy Thompson(AATP)
Gregory Tonn(AATP)
Vishal Vithlani(AATP)
Ben Waghorn(AATP)

Chataqua:
Cameron Gibson

Colgan:
Lindsay Griffin
Sid Smith

CommutAir:
Adam Lapensky

Xjet:
Karina Azuri
Terry Datillio (AATP)
Mat Donahue (AATP)
Phil Keeter (AATP)
Keily Kvamme
Robert Munson (AATP)
Eric Schneider
Justin Shull (AATP)
Scott Zavoda


Skyway:
Brian Kehoe

Skywest:
Beejal Patel

Pinnacle:
Grey Rankin

From the FSA website:

How many hours do I need?

Our ASA and TransStates Direct Track programs require only a Commercial Instrument Multi-Engine rating. No minimum hours are required.

Our ASA and TransStates Direct Track programs require only a Commercial Instrument Multi-Engine rating. No minimum hours are required.

From the FSA website:

Is this really a good time to become a pilot?

Despite what we read and hear in the media regarding major airlines filing for bankruptcy, this is a great time to become a pilot. Hiring at the regional airline level is at an all time high and there are available jobs out there for qualified pilot candidates.

Ummm....they don't seem too interested in mentioning that ASA just got bought out by another regional which does minimal, as in ONE in all of 2005, hiring from the AATP program. But....as long as ASA keeps hiring, the 250 hour FSA guy looks like he's in good shape. I just hope somewhere along the line the FSA ab initio guys learn how finicky the regional airline hiring market can be. Some of the DCA guys that recently went to Comair might want to chime in.....
 
Upon further review of the Flight Safety site...

I could only count 32 guys who got hired from the AATP (ab initio) program in all of 2005. I wonder how many guys got hired from the old school route in the same period? Can't fathom a number, but when I think about, I take rest in the realization that Ab Initio isn't taking over the world, in spite of what the FSA marketing would like you believe.
 
DE727UPS said:
I could only count 32 guys who got hired from the AATP (ab initio) program in all of 2005. I wonder how many guys got hired from the old school route in the same period? Can't fathom a number, but when I think about, I take rest in the realization that Ab Initio isn't taking over the world, in spite of what the FSA marketing would like you believe.
Click to expand...


I don't think FSA is trying to make you believe that the AATP is taking over per say. That number isn't bad though considering they never have any of their AATP guys wash out. They actually do pretty darn well in indoc.

If you are referring to the old school route as instructing then I would say that FSA is doing pretty well there also. Seems like I am always hearing about some regional pilot recruiter walking into the academy and taking every FSA instructor he can get his hands on. Most with well under 1000 TT. FSA must be doing something right.

Not trying to start another fire. I just try to give credit where credit is due and I think FSA turns out a heck of a pilot.

Instrument P
 
"I just try to give credit where credit is due and I think FSA turns out a heck of a pilot"

No doubt FSA turns out a heck of a pilot. I agree. So do a lot of other places and routes. Going part 61 might take a bit longer but you'll end up in the same place and spend a lot less money. To me, it's a better way to go.

I got no problem with guys doing the traditional route at FSA. You'll pay top dollar to go there but some folks seem to think it's worth it. I simply don't think it's worth it, but that's just me.....

You're happy there and think it's worth it, that's cool. Keep posting away with your thoughts and experiences.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Where?
Click to expand...

I believe if you look earlier in this post.....a person who goes to RAA is saying that people are being put into CRJ's with 250TT, and RAA says it also.....someone got hired with colgan at age 19, with 300TT, AWAC at 424TT....AWAC 250TT........as some people said, if you have money, and go through the training.....it doesn't really matter in some cases.
 
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