Advanced Airline Pilot Programs

[GreenDayPilot]

overall THOU, thanks alot, you have VERY good points, how old are you KNOW?

exactly........... i NO everyone hates people, but no matter how stupid they are, i learn to laugh at it.....

No offense cause you seem like an OK guy, BUT..... According to 61.83(c)/61.103(c) you must be able to WRITE the English language....

i.e.,
I usually see THOU as THOUGH
Not KNOW... NOW
Not NO.... KNOW

Don't take this the wrong way... I know those "confusables" can be... well, confusing

 

[DE727UPS]

"If a person goes thru all of the requirments, than yes i dont care how inexperienced they are....the captain is on board"

This is the typical response from the pro-ab-initio and PFT crowd. I simply think we should all set our sights higher than that. Why continue the downward progression in the career?

By the way, Supercell, if you want people to take you seriously, you need to clean up your spelling and grammer. I'm starting to wonder if you are 13 or 19....

 

[jrh]

The FAA will take of that......If a person goes thru all of the requirments, than yes i dont care how inexperienced they are....the captain is on board also.......o god this is gunna get bashed on, but w/e

I think you're missing the point of my original post. We could bring up all the arguments about how safe low time pilots are, etc., but in my original post I said to ignore those points for a minute.

To summarize my first post bluntly--Will you be proud to look back on your path and know that you scraped by with the absolute bare minimums in every way possible to get to a jet job? You never answered that question.

Basically, what you're saying is, "If I can get a license, that means I'm good enough." I can tell you from my experience as an instructor, being "good" and being "good enough" are two different things. Being "good enough" equates to scraping by. Scraping by is not something to be proud of in life. Being "good" equates to caring about what you do and always striving to do it better. That's something to be proud of. My point is that you ought to be proud of whatever path you take in life.

If you can find a way to be proud of doing something the fastest way possible...well...ok. Go for it, I guess. I don't think I could be satisfied with that.

And for goodness sakes...why do you post messages that you know you're going to get bashed for? It's like you know you're wrong, but still don't want to revise your views for some reason.

 

[modesto2]

I agree with most other posts about the fastest and best way to get in the right seat of an RJ. I just graduated from college earlier this year...not online...but a real education that involves attendance, questions, professors and most importantly, competition from other students. After graduation, I completed a fast-paced training program and will now start flight instructing next week. At this rate, I'll go from 0 hours to the right seat in less than 1 year. Finish your degree and then complete training. After all, I don't want to be stuck in a RJ for the rest of my life because of a lack of education.

 

[finnerandr]

JRH,

What I am gathering from your posts is that you must go the long route to be "good" at your job and to be truly satisfied with what you have done. This is to include going to four years of college FIRST, and spend who knows how many thousands of dollars more. So what you are saying is that someone with 1,000 hours AND a college degree is going to be a better pilot than someone who has the same 1,000 hours? And feel better about their accomplishments? Now I agree, they will more than likely get the job first because of the little piece of paper, but that does NOT mean they are a better pilot. And about being satisfied, I am currently attending Regional Airline Academy in Deland, FL(Flamers can start flaming now). I think that if I can handle the fast paced training here, do well on the writtens and FAA rides, and get hired into a regional, that will be satisfaction enough for me. I would NOT be more satisfied if I had gone to college first. In fact, I think I would be more apt to being burned out from going to college first. I think that the best plan of action for me is to get in a job and get that seniority number FIRST, then get an online degree or something to that effect. Not saying this is the right thing for everyone, but it is for me. The fact that I am starting all this later in my life than I wanted to is one reason for this.

Now, as far as everyone that has something bad to say about Regional Airline Academy, you may have some bad info. The school here in Deland is great! I too have heard some bad things from the inside about the Arizona campus, and maybe thats what everyone else is hearing as well. But the Deland campus is more than I could have asked for. The planes are kept in great shape(as great as they can be when student pilots are beating them to death all day every day). I have never had anything more than a burned out landing light(found during preflight) or a rough mag(found during run up). So maintenance is not an issue here. The school itself is very demanding, and very fast paced. Maybe some of you naysayers were just afraid of the challenging curriculum. I dont know. But they do prepare you VERY well. We have had people hired from our school at VERY LOW time, even lower than I would want to be hired. But it happens often. The airlines keep coming to us wanting more and more of us. That has to say something about the quality that this school produces. If you all know of someone who gives this school a bad name, just remember, that is ONE person. There is always a bad apple or two in the bunch. Im sure I could go to every school and FBO that you all trained at and find a few bad apples. But for the most part, what I see is a great school, great curriculum, great aircraft, great instructors, and great preperation for getting you an airline job. Just as advertised. If any of you ever have any questions about this school, feel free to ask me via pm or in this thread. I just had to step in and say all of this so that Supercell might make the right choice for HIM, not the right choice for all of you.

Rant over.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

nick......good post seriously man......i no i should just goto 4 yr college and instruct, and everything.....and i may end up just taking the "safe" route......but god, i got a bad case of "get thereitis" in terms of getting to the airlines.....and i mean really bad.....not only do i love flying to death......but i love the airlines and airports, i have the same feeling everytime i goto the airport since i was 3.....i love being around so many diff. types of people....lol, cause im different, its the flying....but its alot of other things.....meeting new people. .....trying to make the best out of everything.........thats y i love everything about it, not just the flying..........yes i am in an aviation program.....a college in NY....im working on my instrument rating......lol....hard stuff, but i have crystal ball....and it says im the 1 in 4! lol

The FAA will take of that......If a person goes thru all of the requirments, than yes i dont care how inexperienced they are....the captain is on board also.......o god this is gunna get bashed on, but w/e

Somewhere reading this an airline executive just popped a huge one. Dude...airline management has created airlines just for you and this line of thinking. Think their called Freedom & GoJets. Check em out!

-Matthew

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Most of the internet-savvy captains are certainly on the radical side.

It's usually "Hey, aren't you that guy from the website?" followed by "WTF is up with (username)?!"

c'mon...c'mon now you gotta tell me how many times has my name been mentioned or the former gaypilot18?



-Matthew

 

[jrh]

What I am gathering from your posts is that you must go the long route to be "good" at your job and to be truly satisfied with what you have done. This is to include going to four years of college FIRST, and spend who knows how many thousands of dollars more. So what you are saying is that someone with 1,000 hours AND a college degree is going to be a better pilot than someone who has the same 1,000 hours? And feel better about their accomplishments?

I'm sorry, I could have been more clear.

I was trying to address supercell86's mindset, not his proposed actions. The debate about what type of training is best could go 'round and 'round forever. Go to college, get a gazillion flight hours, blah, blah, blah...I don't want to get into that.

The post of supercell86 that bothered me was when he said he only wanted the fastest way, not the best way. It sounded like he didn't care about the quality of what he is trying to do. I just think that's a lousy attitude to have about anything in life, but especially so in aviation where mistakes can have very serious consequences.

I don't know anything about RAA. Maybe they happen to be the best. I don't know. That's another reason I didn't want to get into a "why this school is good or that school is bad" sort of debate. What I do know is that caring solely about the fastest way, without any regard for the best way, is probably a bad idea. So if you choose to go to RAA because they are the best, and they happen to move people through quickly, then great. Just don't go there with the mindset of scraping by with minimal effort in order to get a jet job.

Whatever path supercell86 chooses to take, I hope he takes it for the right reasons.

 

[NJA_Capt]

Flamers can start flaming now…

Well. If you’re giving permission.

Many of you guys keep throwing around 1000-1500 hour pilots as the “experienced” benchmark. As far as most established pilots are concerned, 1500 hour guys are still “green” low timers, whether they went to college or not.

And about being satisfied, I am currently attending Regional Airline Academy in Deland, FL

Compared to what other school?

I think that if I can handle the fast paced training here, do well on the writtens and FAA rides, and get hired into a regional, that will be satisfaction enough for me.

Compared to….?

I think I would be more apt to being burned out from going to college first.

You mean just like the guys that went to college, flew a few hundred sorties in the military (or single pilot freight) and then flew 30 years in the majors. Yep. Looks like they all got burned out going to college first. NOT. If anything, going to college first weeded out more of the people that can’t hack it or aren't serious. Wanna have Doctor that practices before Med school???:banghead:

I think that the best plan of action for me is to …that seniority number FIRST.

So a junior SIC can upgrade before you….because you don’t have the company min hours (or ATP mins).

The fact that I am starting all this later in my life than I wanted to is one reason for this.

Rationalization.

The school here in Deland is great!

Compared to what?
How many have you had experience with?

The school itself is very demanding, and very fast paced.

Compared to….?

Maybe some of you naysayers were just afraid of the challenging curriculum.

Most of the naysayers on here have more than 1000 hours at the hold short line.

But they do prepare you VERY well.

Compared to…?

We have had people hired from our school at VERY LOW time, even lower than I would want to be hired.

And this is good for the industry?

I will echo this once again:
Low time pilots getting hired does not prove that they are good, or experienced. It proves that they can meet MINIMUM FAA STANDARDS.
Do you eat in Restaurants that meet minimum standards?
Do you use doctors/lawyers/cars/stores or other services that meet minimum standards?
Are you currently using an XBox/PS2 or an Atari 2600 (look it up) ?

And once again I ask:
Don’t you wonder why the high timed pilots out there (Yes, there are plenty) aren’t applying for these “much sought after” jobs???????????
Don’t you think all the Mesas and Comairs would rather hire 5000 hour pilots or 500 hour pilots? Which would you rather ride with? (And don’t give us the weak argument that “I have seen terrible 10,000 hour pilots.”
Most people don't want to get in a car with a 19 year old, much less a jet!

Experience cannot be bought or accelerated. But minimums will be lowered until the NTSB and CNN get involved.


(And you think you got flamed...wait til they come after me.)

 

[finnerandr]

NJA Capt,
You have some great points, and all I was trying to do was defend what I think is a good school because I have seen quite a few posts on these boards bashing RAA.

Many of you guys keep throwing around 1000-1500 hour pilots as the “experienced” benchmark. As far as most established pilots are concerned, 1500 hour guys are still “green” low timers, whether they went to college or not.

I am not one to go around taking offense to be called a newbie or FNG or whatever they call em now. I know when it comes to flying, I will ALWAYS be learning. But I will throw back to you what number of hours does one need to no longer be "green"?

Compared to what other school?

Compared to any of em. All of these schools have their good points and their bad. Its just that I have seen a few RAA bashing threads and it doesnt seem like anyone else on these boards that I know of has attended this school. So how the hell do you know? I could talk crap on ATP, or DCA or any number of others, but I havent been there and so I refrain from talking trash about something I dont know for sure. Again, I was just defending the school that I am attending.

You mean just like the guys that went to college, flew a few hundred sorties in the military (or single pilot freight) and then flew 30 years in the majors. Yep. Looks like they all got burned out going to college first. NOT. If anything, going to college first weeded out more of the people that can’t hack it or aren't serious. Wanna have Doctor that practices before Med school???:banghead:

Im not saying that at all. I just know for me personally, I hate the classroom environment. Sitting through 4 years of school is not for me. I will take online courses eventually, and that suits me and my way of life just fine. Also, I did my time in the Marine Corps, so dont throw the military card my way. I may not have flown, but I did my part thank you.

So a junior SIC can upgrade before you….because you don’t have the company min hours (or ATP mins).

And thats just fine by me. Rules are rules and Im not gonna bitch about company mins. I just want that number so that when I do make the requirements, I will get the job.

Rationalization.

Rationalization for what? I am starting later than I would have liked to, so what? I did the military thing after high school. I worked some dead end jobs for a few years before I decided this is what I really wanted. Now I just want to do what I have to do to get a job flying.

Most of the naysayers on here have more than 1000 hours at the hold short line.

I dont care how many hours you have, if you havent attended this school, then wtf do you know about it?

And this is good for the industry?

Well, its not BAD for the industry if they can perform.

I will echo this once again:
Low time pilots getting hired does not prove that they are good, or experienced. It proves that they can meet MINIMUM FAA STANDARDS.

And the FAA doesnt set good enough standards? Is that what you are saying? Or are they not good enough for YOUR standards?

Do you eat in Restaurants that meet minimum standards?

Do you check to see what rating a restraunt has before you go to it?

Do you use doctors/lawyers/cars/stores or other services that meet minimum standards?

Do you ask to see your doctors credentials? Do you check to see how many times it took your lawyer to pass the BAR? Maybe you might look at a few websites, look at a book or two, or talk to your friends before buying a car. I dont see how you "rationalize" your analogy.

Are you currently using an XBox/PS2 or an Atari 2600 (look it up) ?

Thats a stupid analogy as well. And if you must know, I am a poor student that has the money for neither of them.

And once again I ask:
Don’t you wonder why the high timed pilots out there (Yes, there are plenty) aren’t applying for these “much sought after” jobs???????????

Because they are flying bigger and better machines. If I was a high time pilot, flying the heavy iron, why the frack would I apply for an RJ slot?

Don’t you think all the Mesas and Comairs would rather hire 5000 hour pilots or 500 hour pilots? Which would you rather ride with? (And don’t give us the weak argument that “I have seen terrible 10,000 hour pilots.”

I was never going to make that argument. And Im sure as far as the industry is concerned, they would want all of their pilots to have 10,000 hours. Probably be better for insurance number one. But they cant do that, so they make allotments for lower time pilots that can pass THEIR(NOT YOUR) standards.

Most people don't want to get in a car with a 19 year old, much less a jet!

What the hell? I have never seen anyone hesitate to get into a car with a 19 year old driving. And we both know driving sure as hell aint flying. If you meet the requirements for the job, you should get it. Otherwise its age discrimination.

Experience cannot be bought or accelerated. But minimums will be lowered until the NTSB and CNN get involved.

Experience cannot be bought or accelerated. But airlines do hire low time pilots so that they may train them to THEIR expectations, not YOURS.

(And you think you got flamed...wait til they come after me.)

No, I dont think I got flamed, you had some valid points. Im not taking any offense to what you have said, Im just trying to get my point accross.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Now, as far as everyone that has something bad to say about Regional Airline Academy, you may have some bad info"

Isn't RAA that place that gives RJ types to guys with 500 hours? I know CAPT give MD90 types to guys with 500 hours. Anyplace that advoctes 500 hour guys having commercial jet type ratings....well, that's all I need to hear to make a negative judgement.

"Maybe some of you naysayers were just afraid of the challenging curriculum"

Now I'm laughing....
You might want to think twice before you make statements like that. It's ripe for getting you flamed and shows a lack of respect for other fine programs that you don't know anything about. The real world, and the experience you get from it, is the most "challenging curriculum".

"We have had people hired from our school at VERY LOW time, even lower than I would want to be hired"

Not something I'd mention, here, but at least your honest. What airlines are hiring these "very low time" guys you speak of? Do these airlines only hire from RAA? Personally, I'd rather see a guy get more experience before he becomes an airline pilot. The whole concept of "seniority means everything, just get on the list ASAP no matter your quals" really lowers the bar for the profession and is not something to be proud of.

 

[finnerandr]

"Now, as far as everyone that has something bad to say about Regional Airline Academy, you may have some bad info"

Isn't RAA that place that gives RJ types to guys with 500 hours? I know CAPT give MD90 types to guys with 500 hours. Anyplace that advoctes 500 hour guys having commercial jet type ratings....well, that's all I need to hear to make a negative judgement.

Its not RAA that gives the type, its CAE in Denver. If you have the money, they will give you the type, its that simple.

"Maybe some of you naysayers were just afraid of the challenging curriculum"

Now I'm laughing....
You might want to think twice before you make statements like that. It's ripe for getting you flamed and shows a lack of respect for other fine programs that you don't know anything about. The real world, and the experience you get from it, is the most "challenging curriculum".

I was just getting at the fact that some chose to get their ratings at a slower pace, and dont want to be "rushed through". I should have worded that very differently. I appologize. And I addressed the other "fine programs" in my last post by saying I dont know much about them because I never went there, and therefore will not post trash about them. I thought I made that abundantly clear.

"We have had people hired from our school at VERY LOW time, even lower than I would want to be hired"

Not something I'd mention, here, but at least your honest. What airlines are hiring these "very low time" guys you speak of? Do these airlines only hire from RAA? Personally, I'd rather see a guy get more experience before he becomes an airline pilot. The whole concept of "seniority means everything, just get on the list ASAP no matter your quals" really lowers the bar for the profession and is not something to be proud of.

Those airlines consist of Air Wisconsin, PSA, ASA, Colgan, TSA, Express Jet, Boston-Maine Airways, American Eagle, Midwest Connect, and so on. No, they dont solely hire from us, but every single person that finishes the program is hired within about 45 days. That has to say something. I should have made more clear about getting the seniority number. I believe its very important to get a number as soon as practical, not as soon as possible. I may qualify to be hired with only 500 hours, but that doesnt mean that I personally am ready. I will stick with instructing until I feel confident that I can perform to a standard above their "minimums".

Thanks for your thoughts, and for not being as hostile as you could have been. I hope I cleared some of this up for you.

 

[pilot602]

Its not RAA that gives the type, its CAE in Denver. If you have the money, they will give you the type, its that simple.

[offtopic] RAA sucks. [/offtopic]

And before you go round and round with people who are where YOU want to be maybe you should sit back and reflect on that statement. They are WHERE YOU want to BE.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

[offtopic] RAA sucks. [/offtopic]

And before you go round and round with people who are where YOU want to be maybe you should sit back and reflect on that statement. They are WHERE YOU want to BE.

Hey...whats wrong with flaps 30 ina 172 ona 2-3 mile final to IWA?



-Matthew

 

[finnerandr]

[offtopic] RAA sucks. [/offtopic]

And your basis on this is what?

And before you go round and round with people who are where YOU want to be maybe you should sit back and reflect on that statement. They are WHERE YOU want to BE.

Yes, they are currently sitting pretty in positions that I am striving to be in. But that just what I am doing, striving to be there. I am knocking out my ratings and building my time just as they did. Only difference is that I may get hired with fewer hours than they did when they first started out. Is that necessarily wrong of me?

 

[DE727UPS]

"Its not RAA that gives the type, its CAE in Denver. If you have the money, they will give you the type, its that simple"

Sad what this industry has come to.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

We have had people hired from our school at VERY LOW time, even lower than I would want to be hired

Only difference is that I may get hired with fewer hours than they did when they first started out. Is that necessarily wrong of me?

If they got hired at VERY LOW time and you have the possibility to get hired with fewer hours then they did...in a word yes it is wrong of you.

-Matthew

 

[supercell86]

I'm sorry, I could have been more clear.

I was trying to address supercell86's mindset, not his proposed actions. The debate about what type of training is best could go 'round and 'round forever. Go to college, get a gazillion flight hours, blah, blah, blah...I don't want to get into that.

The post of supercell86 that bothered me was when he said he only wanted the fastest way, not the best way. It sounded like he didn't care about the quality of what he is trying to do. I just think that's a lousy attitude to have about anything in life, but especially so in aviation where mistakes can have very serious consequences.

I don't know anything about RAA. Maybe they happen to be the best. I don't know. That's another reason I didn't want to get into a "why this school is good or that school is bad" sort of debate. What I do know is that caring solely about the fastest way, without any regard for the best way, is probably a bad idea. So if you choose to go to RAA because they are the best, and they happen to move people through quickly, then great. Just don't go there with the mindset of scraping by with minimal effort in order to get a jet job.

Whatever path supercell86 chooses to take, I hope he takes it for the right reasons.

i yi yi, what have i started?? lol......listen carefully once again.....My plan isn't to get to the reginols in the fastest way possible, I just know the college route and the CFI route very well, I've researched that option. Now I'm looking at other options, not nessesarily saying I'm going to do an Advanced ATP program. I just was curious what people thought of these programs, so that I could learn something, and open up more options for my self. As i said, no i dont plan on going to RAA and getting hired at 400TT. But i'd like to know that i can just for the hell of it. I plan on going to college for 4 yrs, and all that fun stuff.....i was just curious, as i said, what is the fastest way to get to the reginols, NOT so that I could do it, just so that i could be informed! And yes everyone, I'm sorry I write very fast, and don't always look over my grammar, I'm so sorry, lol

 

[finnerandr]

If they got hired at VERY LOW time and you have the possibility to get hired with fewer hours then they did...in a word yes it is wrong of you.

-Matthew

When I say VERY LOW time, I mean the guys that are getting hired with 250-300 hours. I do believe that is too low. And yes, I know one such individual that got hired two months ago at just over 250 hours total time!!! But in an earlier post, I said I am going to instruct until I feel that I am ready. So if I get hired at 700 or 800 hours, thats bad of me? Or is it only bad because alot of you didnt get hired until 1000 or more hours? Is this a viable argument or are you all just jealous that you didnt get in the door as fast? Say what you will, but I will be on the line with you all hopefully in a year to a year and a half. Reserve your judgement of me until I am flying right seat with some of you. If I screw up, then you can blame whoever and whatever you want. But Im not gonna screw up, this is WAY too important to me. So what I am saying is that if I get hired at a lower time than you guys, and still do the job well, then wtf is your problem?

 

[DE727UPS]

"but every single person that finishes the program is hired within about 45 days"

When you start talking Colgan's, BMA's, Midwest connect's, TSA(Gojet's), you're talking third tier regionals with really low hiring mins. Saying RAA gets "everyone" hired within 45 days when you are looking at who's doing the hiring doesn't impress me. If Gulfstream had the same record of getting guys hired does that make it a good place to train at?

"I may qualify to be hired with only 500 hours, but that doesnt mean that I personally am ready. I will stick with instructing until I feel confident that I can perform to a standard above their "minimums".

Good for you. And, no, I don't think the FAA does a good job of regulating min standards for airline training (see the type rating post above). They leave it up to the airlines and the airlines cut corners where ever possible. The FAA turns a blind eye until something bad happens, kinda like what happened at Pinnacle.

"is it only bad because alot of you didnt get hired until 1000 or more hours? Is this a viable argument or are you all just jealous that you didnt get in the door as fast?"

It's a viable arguement that the more experience one has, the better of a pilot one is. Where the line is drawn to be a regional F/O keeps getting lower because pay and working conditions keep getting lower. That's the sad thing, I think. What's scary is how much worse it could get. Would you pay for your own type rating if you could upgrade out of seniority? Hope it never comes to that. Thank Gawd for unions.