Addition of Flaps in a Turn...

[seagull]

Perhaps you should take a look at my profile before asking such questions? Not listed there, I was also an LCA and IP at a large regional (UA Express carrier), so I have that experience as well. If you are not familiar, CAST was what became of the White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security. The members of that committee consist of ALPA, ATA, FAA, the manufacturers, NASA, ICAO, DOD, DOT and several other alphabet organizations. Each one offering people who are considered (in the words of CAST, and I personally hate the term), "experts" in the field. I was drafted to be group chairman for the Loss of Control JSIT Training committee (a job I spent the rest of the year trying to get myself out of!).

After that, at the JIMDAT we were tasked with looking at all accident types and, with statistical and empirical analysis, deciding which projects met the criteria for going forward. If we had somehow missed the issue when we did the JSAT/JSIT, we would have caught it in JIMDAT.

Suffice to say, with the FAA Transport Directorate, the manufactures and airlines all sending their flight test engineers, aero dynamicists, chief test pilots and a host of others, if there had been an issue of adding flaps in turns, we WOULD have addressed it.

Quite simply, it is not an issue affecting transport aviation.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

I disagree. For reasons stated above there is an increased chance of danger if an asymmetrical flap situation occured in a turn.

While the initials are impressive, I'm just talking about "fisics"

Also, every one of those airlines had a policy of no flaps in turns, especially in the turboprop aircraft.

And no, I don't read profiles! Who has time? I can barely read all the posts on here.

 

[ananoman]

I work at FSI and I teach the addition of flaps in turns. I really don't see any reason why a pilot should avoid doing this. If you are that worried about something bad happening, quit flying.

All of our aircraft here have mechanical flaps that you have to extend by pulling a lever between the seats. I usually go flaps 10 on downwind and add flaps 25 on the downwind to base turn and then go to flaps 40 on the base to final turn. If you have electric flaps and are turning it might be wise to avoid going from no flaps to full flaps in a turn, but I see no reason why you would do this anyway. Flaps are usually added in increments, so any rolling moment should be easily countered if an asymmetrical deployment occurs.

I have not run across any accidents dealing with the addition of flaps in turns. The only accidents I have read about all dealt with the removal of flaps and slats in turns. There have been several accidents where aircraft retracted flaps and slats too early after takeoff. If you are too low and slow this can be fatal, especially in a turn (higher load factor). Most of these occurred during the early transition to jets, when pilots were not familiar with the tricky handling characteristics of swept wings.

 

[seagull]

Well, the operators often know less of their aircraft than do the manufacturers, so I would lean with the flight test and certification community, overall.

Having said that, there is merit to saying that a low time pilot might have problems sensing an assymetric condition due to lack of familiarity with the handling qualities of the aircraft. Perhaps the regionals you flew for had that problem due to hiring so many low time/inexperienced pilots?

 

[Mr_Creepy]

LOL what regional commuter was NOT hiring low time pilots between 1996 and 2000?

I started at Eagle in Jan 1995 with 2300 hrs and I was about the norm.

When I started at Mesa in July 1996 with 3500 hrs I was something of a freak. The next highest time person in my class had around 2200. We had quite a few who barely had 1500 with wet ink on their ATPs. (Mesa required ATPs back then, except for San Juan grads.)

Right after that some San Juan classes started with a bunch of 300 hr pilots.

But still, your remark is very provincial. I don't think there is a real difference in flying skills beyond a certain number of hours. After 1500 hrs or so (changes from person to person of course) the skills developed are more judgement than actual stick and rudder.

For example, my judgement says don't extend flaps in turns. If it's questionable why do it? Any one who does extend flaps in turns after being warned against it is demonstrating either poor judgement, or a severe testosterone problem.

If you are an experienced pilot who knows how to plan a stabilized approach, than except under unusual circumstances there should be no need to extend flaps in a turn.

So in summary, if there is any question, why do it? To show off? Remember that many early air disasters were prefaced with "Watch this!"

 

[Visceral]

How steep are you guys turning on these base/final legs? Unless you are doing 45 degree turns, you would have ample time to recognize a problem with flaps and recover. I use flaps when I need them, not necessarily when I'm straight and level.

 

[E_Dawg]

How do you know?

...not that I do...

Most of the time it takes an accident before something is done differently, unfortunately.

It's not that hard to just extend flaps S&L. If you need to do it in a turn, then go ahead... It's like planning your approach so you don't have to slip on final every time: If you need to, you can. Otherwise, why risk it?

 

[A300Capt]

No where, in any of my training with the airlines, or my general aviation days for that matter, has the problem of moving the flaps while in a turn been discussed. It's simply not even a consideration with me.

BTW, most large jets, especially the newer design ones, have sensors that detect asymmetrical or disagree flap/slat situations. In that event, the flaps or slats are designed to automatically stop before it gets out of hand.

As an ex-sim and IOE instructor, I could go on about various flap/slat problems, what I've seen and how they're handled, but putting flaps out while in a normal turn is the least of my concerns.

I agree with Seagull.

 

[DE727UPS]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what Airline world you are in.

Every carrier I flew with preached against adding flaps in turns.

They are in chronological order:

American Eagle
CCAir
Mesa
Air Midwest
Mesa Again
Midway


[/ QUOTE ]

See JT....this is why people get pissed at you and you find the need to apologise like in your previous thread. I mean, you're saying to a Fedex pilot "I don't know what world your in". Very bad form....

I put flaps down when I need flaps, turning or not...it's no big deal.

 

[ready2fly]

Give it up guys. As I've said before, it's like trying to break rocks with a Wiffle Ball Bat.

Seagull, A300Cpt, DE727UPS:

Thanks for all the educated and informed responses from the HIGHLY experienced pilots from major carriers! I have a great deal of respect for you guys and your opinions.

A man in my position = 175 hours, working on his Comm. ticket - REALLY likes to hear answers from the guys who are CURRENTLY doing what I intend on doing.

It's a bit strange to me that this topic has gone as far as it has, but I suppose it's worth talking about if there are dissenting opinions.

In my limited experience, adding flaps in a turn has had the same result as it does during straight and level = plane slows down and the nose INITIALLY wants to pitch up.

That's been my experience.

Thanks again for giving informed answers not based on any perceived personal expertise, but real world experience.

Greatly appreciated!!

R2F

 

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]

See JT....this is why people get pissed at you and you find the need to apologise like in your previous thread. I mean, you're saying to a Fedex pilot "I don't know what world your in". Very bad form....

I put flaps down when I need flaps, turning or not...it's no big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an honest question. I don't know what airline world this guy is in. I didn't know he was a Fed-Ex pilot, I don't know he's a Fed-Ex pilot for sure, nor does that change things. Fed-Ex pilots are not known to be superior to other pilots are they? Is there something I don't know about?

However none of this matters, the key point is as I repeat, if it is unnecessary to do an action that may have danger associated, then why do it?

Midway taught no flaps in the turn for a B737. The rest of the situations were turboprops. I don't assume that they were right, but I see the logic. I'm a conservative, especially in flying. I'd rather err on the side of safety.

 

[EatSleepFly]

R2F-

In some airplanes (and some airplanes moreso than others), adding flaps in a turn reduces the pitching moment.

I'd try to give you an aerodynamic explanation, but I'm just not up to it right now (just got done battling with the boss). Maybe later.

 

[Baronman]

But Mr. Tenny, there are lots of things we could/could not do during a flight to maintain a greater margin of safety.

ie. I choose to descend at Vno (Yellow/Green Arc) even though it is well above maneuvering speed, and I do so in smooth air. Is there the possiblility of encountering sudden turbulence thus overstressing the airframe, sure....but remote. I take the calculated risk.

I also only climb at Vy for the 1st thousand feet, even though I could put more space between myself and earth by continuing at that speed, I choose to go faster. Is it risky? No, but might it be safer to climb at Vy to 2,000 feet, maybe.

If the manufacturer has made no limitation on flap extensions in turns, and the FAA has made no mention of it in the form of an Advisory Circular, etc...then I see no problem.

I understand you flying your aircraft as safely as possible, but I don't think something like flap extensions in turns should be labeled inherently dangerous or risky flying. (I'm not saying you said that).

 

[Eagle]

How on earth did miss this??!!!!

WOW is all I can say.

JT: [ QUOTE ]
Extending flaps in a turn has no more chance of causing an asymmetrical flap than in level flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you defend it through out as being an issue…

JT:[ QUOTE ]
The danger is, suppose you happen to get an asymmetrical flap while in a turn, and it's the high wing?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if it is a low wing? Low wings don’t roll? How about a mid wing? ( ask Patty Wagstaff she may have some input)

[ QUOTE ]
Fed-Ex pilots are not known to be superior to other pilots are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

SMOOTH JT!!!
[ QUOTE ]

American Eagle
CCAir
Mesa
Air Midwest
Mesa Again
Midway


[/ QUOTE ]

AE is still around any of the others ( I really don’t know I don’t follow the 121 route much

Buyt man – o – man JT thank you thank you thank you for some of the most enjoyable reading in ages.!!

I LOVE the way you snipe at the people who are actually flying for a living.. relentlessly!!

It’s great!!! BRAVO!!

is this a tactic your aviationinterscrew.com teaches?

 

[Mr_Creepy]

I can see you still choose to misunderstand everything I say.

Quote: A turn does not increase the chance of causing an asymmetrical flap extension. What it increases is the possible hazard resulting from such an extension.

As I said before, I would prefer you go "moderate" someone else, somewhere else. I don't need your comments. They are not constructive. They are not friendly. In fact, they are hostile, bigoted, ignorant and display supreme arrogance.

If you can find something costructive and positive to say I might listen to you again in the future. But for right now, you are on IGNORE.

To the board owner Doug Taylor. Please consider this a formal complaint and request that you removed the obviously misplaced "moderator" (who does a disservice to that name) and replace him with someone who understands the duties of being a moderator.

 

[E_Dawg]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd try to give you an aerodynamic explanation, but I'm just not up to it right now (just got done battling with the boss). Maybe later.

[/ QUOTE ]

ESF when you get the chance I'd like to hear it!

 

[E_Dawg]

...but maybe a different thread; this one's probably gonna go from bad to worse

 

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see you still choose to misunderstand everything I say.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I agree with much of what you post. Not think it is a valid concern but you are right, hell if you came on and posted. If a wing fell off that would be bad, I would agree as well. I just LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the sniping at people who disagree!! a laugh out load riot!! THANK YOU!!

[ QUOTE ]
supreme arrogance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for you kind words.

[ QUOTE ]
But for right now, you are on IGNORE.

[/ QUOTE ]

awww this is the second time or thrirs maybe you have done this, You won't follow up on it, (i hope) the entertainment value you bring to my day would take a huge hit...

[ QUOTE ]


BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAHPlease consider this a formal complaint and request that you removed the obviously misplaced "moderator" (who does a disservice to that name) and replace him with someone who understands the duties of being a moderator. BLAH BLAH BLAH


[/ QUOTE ]

Any chance you would be interested in telling us how my opinions of your blathering posts are in any way connected to my ability to moderate? that function is in no way affileated with JC just a service we do to help.

....wait I have been through this before with and chunk and some others.... it is an apples and oranges argument and you don;t get it now you have not "got it" before so why waste my time.

Feel free to take your toys and go home, (i want you to stay, but that is just me)

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'd try to give you an aerodynamic explanation, but I'm just not up to it right now (just got done battling with the boss). Maybe later.

[/ QUOTE ]


ESF when you get the chance I'd like to hear it!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, yeah... me too, me too!!

Always eager to learn!! When you have time that is.

R2F

 

[transienttorque]

Mesa had a problem with asymmetric flaps on the 1900 a few years back. The flap tracks were not being lubed properly and the flaps tended to twist outboard and bind with the aileron.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X08210&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07358&key=1

John Tenney and I were part of the same era at Mesa and I remember the instructors going on at some length about NO flaps in the turn. They made quite an impression on me and to this day, I still hesitate before adding flaps in a turn.

BTW John, on the CRJ, they replaced the flex cable flap drive on the 200 to torque tubes on the 700/900, so that flap problem is fixed, too.